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 Post subject: Re: Legal Options
PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:39 am 
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JerryB wrote:
Gene Long wrote:
( -snip- )Face it: It takes deep pockets to sue the pants off someone, whether for defamation or other civil offenses. In fact, you may lose your shirt before they lose their pants. See again the sad saga of the Banana Suit. For most of us, under most circumstances, civil suits in the United States are not going to provide justice.

I am not a lawyer, but I don't think the odds are much better in the criminal court system either. US courts don't really have any jusisdiction (as has been brought out in other posts on this forum), and I seriously doubt that any foreign law enforcement agencies are going to have any interest or the resources to prosecute crimes which took place 15-20 years ago and whose perpetrators and victims are no longer in the country.

I would much rather see our energies directed at doing what can realistically be done to bring some measure of justice and validation to the victims and to use this opportunity to completely review and revise the way that MKs are cared for and treated.


At this time, Jerry, criminal courts in the US are probably not going to be a very productive path for the victims of abuse that happened fifteen to twenty years ago to take. And, I'm going to stick with you regarding criminal courts / law enforcement agencies in other countries, too: Not much can probably be done at this stage.

That is to say, not much can be done in criminal courts. Civil Courts are another matter. These sorts of personal injury cases probably can be tried in civil courts in most countries. NTM owns property in most countries where it operates; it may also be less onerous to enforce a claim against NTM in these countries. Moreover, NTM may be less willing to string things out and suffer negative publicity in countries where they do not have citizenship. In Thailand, it is not nearly as expensive to bring a civil suit as it is in America, putting it within the reach of even poor people.

So, I would see civil suits in foreign countries as a good way to bring some measure of justice and validation to the victims. I know that most victims do not live overseas in these countries any more, and that complicates things. But, it may well be an alternative that could be explored and exploited by some victims. And, in a very real sense, a victory for one is a victory for all.


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 Post subject: Re: Legal Options
PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 6:49 am 
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There is more on this general topic, and some specific things about vigilante justice, on the "Crime and Punishment" thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Legal Options
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:02 pm 
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Thai MK wrote:
Folks, with all due respect to above attorney, let's consider the following (I am discussing U.S. civil suits only...there are likely even more problems with criminal suits)

Statute of Limitations: There may be statutes of limitations which, even if a cause of action is merited, may disallow the filing of suit after a certain period of time after the action giving rise to the cause of action occurs. There are often exceptions to these statutes that may or may not apply (i.e., the clock may not start until the discovery of the injury or the discovery of the perpetrator of the injuries).

Jurisdictional Issues: Is anybody aware of any law of any state, or any federal law which would give a court within the United States the jurisdiction to adjudicate a lawsuit regarding actions taken and injuries received outside of the United States.

Burden of Proof Issues: I'm assuming the burden of proof that the plaintiff in any suit must meet would be the preponderence of the evidence (i.e., more likely than not/greater than 50% chance). Whereas that burden would not seem to hard to meet, most of the evidence regarding these actions are one person's words against another. Much of the evidence would be barred due to the hearsay rules.

Now, having said all of that, to the extent that there has been more recent abuse, which took place at a location in which the desired court has competent jurisdiction, and where the statute of limitations has not lapsed, by all means, a suit could easily be brought. But, the cost/time/effort/likelihood of success must all be weighed. But, this is why we have courts and juries. Given the right facts, I would file the complaint.

In addition, for more recent sexual crimes against minors committed even overseas, there are relatively recent U.S. criminal statutes that allow the prosecution of those crimes here in the U.S., given the correct facts. You still may have statute of limitations issues and possible burden of proof issues (standard much higher in a criminal case), and issues finding a prosecutor willing to take on the case, especially where the witnesses and evidence is scatterred around the globe.

The facts are, that in most of these cases from years ago, there is little likelihood of receiving a just result in court.

What really needs to be done is what is being done. This case is being tried in the court of public opinion and the public is exerting pressure where it needs to be applied. We are demanding changes. We are demanding apologies. We are demanding people be fired. We are demanding compensation, even though it could never be enough. We are raising hell...and finally, finally, action is being taken, things that should be recognized are being recognized. To NTM, there is bath water and there are babies. The bath water must be thrown out. To the extent that a few babies must go with the bathwater to ensure that the bathwater is gone, well, enough said.

I am highly confident that within the next few years, NTM will dissolve. Any assets it has remaining will be contributed to a new organization with a new name, with a new methodology and a new attitude. They had better get it right this time.

To the supporters of NTM who have given their hard earned money over the years, I apologize in many cases for the lack of return you have received on your money. Not only did some of your money assist the criminals in their crimes, your money is now going to investigate the crimes and compensate the victims.

To all of the other missionaries, leaders or not, who were around at that time, consider what part you may have played in these crimes, indirectly, if not directly. As a kid, I was aware of abuse that had taken place in some of the countries mentioned. I can only assume that some of you knew alot more than I knew. I did not see nearly enough action to ensure this type of thing did not occur. I did not see nearly enough hell raised. Let's not all blame our inaction on the inaction of leaders. The leaders were cut from the same cloth as the rest of the rank and file. The leaders were themselves victims of those who had gone before them.

To the victims of these crimes and other evil acts, I apologize that I myself, even though a mere MK, did not do enough to protect you. I'm not sure what I could have done, but I could have done more. When I became an adult, I could have raised some serious hell like some of you started doing on this blog. I did not, and I apologize for that. But, I stand with you now. Keep the good fight, and stick to the methods that will bring about true results and change.


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 Post subject: Re: Legal Options
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:47 am 
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Posts: 53
Legal option can be dicey....I didn't
know I was a victim of child abuse
until 15 years after the fact....with my analytical skills I did my own investigation. I thought at first I was poisoned by mercury, lead,DDT, and proceeded a long jouney to remove impurities from my body..A part of my brain seemed to sieze up when I got into a high pressure situation....and mean bosses sent me reeling.!! By talking to other MK's and the symtoms they were telling me and their experiences I began a long journey to uncover the truth...another 5 years went by....I finally talked to 2 MK's that clinched my suspicions...Some kids I am sure killed themselves...can't talk to them.....It is possible......since NTM never admitted guilt that a person could think..." I was just born defective but I am sure glad I got away from those goon zeolots on the Mission field."..!!...Like Ron Lotz.!!...


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 Post subject: Re: Legal Options
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:21 am 
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I'm so glad you are figuring these things out, Scatterbrained. It's never too late.

I'm sorry you're not getting much response here on Fanda Eagles. I don't think we have many readers anymore, and even fewer posters.


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