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PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 3:51 pm 
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Absolutely agreed.

The whole point (IMHO) of these forums is to encourage dialog, to present the various points of view, so that we can all be better informed and make better assessments of the situation.

I will, at times, post something intentionally controversial to my Facebook page just to get some discussion going. I don't necessarily agree with all of the comments, but I hope that my friends will read them all and consider other points of view.


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PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 6:41 pm 
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Paul Syson wrote:
Raz, I think I have been pretty clear in past posts that I don't put leaders on pedestals. They can fall, they do fall, and some (in my opinion) are living fallen. When I first began my post it read NO NO YES YES. And then I went back and changed it. Why? Because these issues are so complicated that a simple Yes or No cannot be the final answer. You know that from having to discipline your children in the past. If you always take one child's perspective as totally accurate, you will ultimately lose the confidence of the other(s). There is almost always the need to sort out the events and effects, and determine consequences and extents of liability.

Someone told me recently that both NTM and the survivors are pretty well entrenched, and I think that was a very accurate statement. Nobody here has dared to suggest that Gary Earl might actually have been speaking truth when he wrote that apology letter because it is just too far outside the trench. And nobody on here seems to think that NTM can or will ever change for the same reason.

I am being taught by MK abuse survivors, but I won't blindly accept everything that is being proclaimed. And so I stand by my answer. I will not paint individuals at NTM with the same brush any more than I will do so for the survivors on this site.


I think there is a huge difference between the entrenchment camps.

I'll be honest. I do not like being compared to entrenched NTMers who may or may not believe that abuse occurred and seem to doubt or dismiss the validity of the lifetime damage and pain that some/most are suffering. I am reminded of political discussions with people who only get their news from one news source. I describe it as "living in the bubble." These are the members who want the survivors to just "get over it."

I understand your statement regarding judging whether or not Gary Earl might have been speaking the truth. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt and say he was. This is even more disgusting considering he can beat a child naked for hours making her bloodied and injured to the point of not being able to sit for days or weeks and NOT know he hurt her. So yes, he may have spoken the truth and this shows his character.

Survivors are entrenched given that they have been dismissed for decades. First, they were abused. Second, they were not heard, told they were lying, told they would ruin a man's ministry, told natives would go to hell if they continued, etc. And now that they are heard (somewhat), a piss-poor investigation and summary is the result.

Your entrenchment comparison is apples to oranges.


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PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 9:11 pm 
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threewillows wrote:
Your entrenchment comparison is apples to oranges.

But there is more than one aspect to the entrenchment. Bemused has made us very aware that there are those who refuse to acknowledge that abuse ever took place. But, to my knowledge, those are by far the minority. That is not the comparison I am making. My focus centers on a common distrust.

Where NTM leaders are currently entrenched, from what I've seen, is in suspecting that those on this forum overwhelmingly desire to bring NTM down and that anything put in writing can and will be used against NTM in any way it can be. They distrust you. And in the same way, distrust of NTM seems to be the main grid through which many survivors view anything emanating from NTM. I AM NOT QUESTIONING THE VALIDITY OF DISTRUST ON EITHER SIDE -- JUST SAYING IT EXISTS.

That is the entrenchment that I see which poses the greatest hindrances.

Personally, I think the survivors have a very valid point.

Personally, I think NTM has a very valid point.


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PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 10:33 pm 
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Why would they distrust us? They created us! By their apathy, collusion or turning a blind eye. Revenge may be the focus of some however the greater blindness is NTM members' focus on this rather than the atrocities that have been committed on us...their children.

Many regimes thought they had a valid point. They were wrong.


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PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 11:09 pm 
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They distrust us? Hey! That feels OK! I mean, I'm not even acknowledged my most people . . .i think maybe we're doing the right thing then . . .


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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 11:18 am 
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Canine Bemused is cute, everyone loves him. He is a bit of a celebrity when he rides around on the back of the bike and generally he is a well behaved dog.
But he is of the Terrier breed and no matter how much he is loved, how cute he looks and no matter how innocent his eyes are, we don't trust him when it comes to cats. He has a switch in his doggy brain that just goes on when he sees a cat and it connects with his legs and mouth, which then turn him into a ruthless chaser of cats.
And even though we tell him off and explain to him that it is not socially acceptable to chase other peoples cats, he still does it and I suspect he always will, because he will always be a Terrier.

Maybe there is a parallel with humans in regards to trust. Paedophiles can appear to be charming, socially adept e.t.c., but even with promises of changed behaviour, putting them with a group of children is like putting Canine Bemused with a group of cats. And those that have or do minimise and excuse the behaviour of paedophiles, fall into the same category.

There is very little hope that Canine Bemused will ever change and he will always be distrusted in the matter of felines. However if NTM leadership were to do what BJU did and go back to GRACE, sort out whatever their differences were and get a proper investigation proceed into the remaining fields and follow the recommendations of such an investigation, then there is hope.


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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 12:10 pm 
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Paul Syson wrote:
Someone told me recently that both NTM and the survivors are pretty well entrenched, and I think that was a very accurate statement.


The statement should be "both NTM leaders and the survivors who post on FandaEagles.com are pretty well entrenched."

By NTM's definition of abuse in its manual, the majority of my PNG friends have experienced abuse. These "survivors," as we're calling them, do not post on Fanda Eagles. Only three of us from PNG are active on the forum, currently. The majority of the PNG survivors do support NTM, and have always thought NTM would take care of things. I am in touch with dozens of them. They are reading this forum, watching to see what NTM will do with my story, watching and waiting before telling theirs.

We who post are those who have directly experienced what NTM does with stories of abuse. Of course we are skeptical of NTM leadership now. We have reason to be. But all survivors are not "entrenched." Most are waiting and watching this forum to see how NTM takes care of us who have stepped forward.

And that's why I agree with Bemused: "NTM leadership [should] do what BJU did and go back to GRACE, sort out whatever their differences were and get a proper investigation proceed into the remaining fields and follow the recommendations of such an investigation, then there is hope." I have done a lot of research into GRACE, and believe them to be the most honest, transparent, and thorough investigative firm there is.


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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 11:02 pm 
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dreamwords wrote:
The statement should be "both NTM leaders and the survivors who post on FandaEagles.com are pretty well entrenched."

Thank you for pulling me up short, Dreamwords -- you said what I meant. You see, apart from this forum, I am in touch with only one survivor, and so when I use that term I am referring to those who post here.

And yet, even as I say that, I realize that even those here have very different perspective, and in many ways cannot be classified as a group.

And although "entrenched" can create a very vivid mental picture, it perhaps can be very misleading because every one of us is entrenched in a way. At this particular point in time, I wholeheartedly believe that my perspective is right; after all, if it weren't I'd change it, right?? :D Each of us perceives our own grid to be truth and the conclusions we draw to be accurate, therefore we are just as entrenched as anyone else. We just happen to agree with ourselves, and consider everyone else to be extreme.

I seem to have to clarify myself often on here, but the expanded dialogue may be beneficial. This particular one suggests that none of us have the whole picture, and are wise to evaluate what it is we are missing.


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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 6:17 am 
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Of course I see myself as being the perfect embodiment of a non entrenched entity, with my Sympathetic Agnostic doubts :lol: . Sort of a lonely traveller in no mans land, who hasn't the courage to get over his doubts.
Of course the term "no mans land" comes from WWI, when there was a thin strip of land between the opposing sides. This was in France, a country that had a revolution 200 years ago and although I am not French and not causing much of a revolution, I am still revolting. Ooops that doesn't sound right, where is the delete button!

Oh no, I've hit the submit button :o


Seriously though. We were innocent kids, caught up in a mess that we did not want to be and because of geographical and other factors, had little chance of avoiding situations that occurred. It should never have been allowed to happen, but it did. And it should have been sorted out properly decades ago, but alas that didn't happen either.
Many people have been hurt by this sandal and for some the pain will go on for a long time. Eventually we will all move on, possibly to our final resting places and hopefully nothing like this ever happens again. In the meantime we have the freedom that many don't, to be able to discuss, ponder and debate issues, so that we and the many unknown who follow the many posts can get a better understanding of what a mess of innocent lives abuse can make and be inspired to see an end to it.


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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 7:24 am 
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Thank you Bemused, Dreamwords . . .Paul . . .all . . .well, we are supposed to start the day with gratitude, right? This is a luxury . . .to be able to discuss . . .share, compare, debate . . .snarl, oops! Did I write that?


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