MK forum

Thank you Joel for being willing to speak against the sexual abuser.

Joel said, "...leaders from my era. It is totally unfair to put them under today's scrutiny."

Is wrong wrong only in certain time frames? Nope, don't get that Joel. As I see it, any abuse against children is wrong, no matter the era. Societial rules or acceptance changes, but wouldn't God want children protected and cared for properly in all instances, in all countries, in all eras be they 60s, 70s, 80s, or 90s, or the present? Why do leaders of yesteryear have priviledges? They are culpable indeed. So say I.

I agree with highlander- NTM has many years history of members of NTM bringing these things before them and hoping for them to be dealt with. The leaders should totally be held accountable because to too many they were the managers at the top that were supposed to deal with these things. I have seen it time and again how members tried to deal with problems and it stoppped at the EC level.

Sadly, some members don't even question it. My husband's own parents have not even asked him what kind of abuse, if any, he has endured let alone any one of his siblings.

I'm sorry, MK Wife. That would be really hard to have your parents not ask and not acknowledge the wrong that happened to you.

Highlander - I agree. If abuse was hidden, those who hid it should be held responsible. I think in some of the cases I know about, the abuser was kicked out, and everything was kept quiet and nothing was reported. Maybe that is the standard Joel is referring to - expecting that the abuser should have been reported to authorities? I'm not saying it was ok that it wasn't reported, because it should have been. But I wonder if any of them actually thought about it? Were they told not to report it, or did they not even consider it? That mentality of keeping everything quiet started somewhere! It was like the normal thing to do, keep it quiet, even when the abuse was dealt with on the field and the abuser was kicked out.

Thanks Gene. Good point. It does show it was an intentional standard, to not report abuse to authorities.

I'm trying to figure out what this means: "I will not be a part of prosecuting leaders from my era. It is totally unfair to put them under today's scrutiny. " The writer is referring to the 60s and 70s.

Are we simply feeling bad for the leaders, whom we knew and some whom we loved, who are now elderly. Or is there really something unfair about them being held responsible, when back then just having the perp kicked off the field seemed just (somehow we thought that). Are there things that are considered abuse now that somehow were not considered abuse back then, like beatings consisting of 40 whips done multiple times in one day to the same person (even one time in one day should be called abuse), which would excuse leaders from dealing with those abusers? How could that not be called abuse, even back then?

Just trying to figure it out.

In response to the thought of holding leaders of yesteryear to today's scrutiny, I think there are some reasons that should give yesteryear leaders some grace. (I am thinking of Field leadership at this point.)
What is intentional abuse in God's eyes is wrong in any year, but what about unintentional abuse? The seperation from family at a young age could be considered abuse ( many now say it certianly is) but it was not known back then that it would cause the damage that it did. So who do we blame? leadership? our parents? All were a part in it happening. But was it intentional abuse? Yes the teaching was that there was a sacrifice to be made but did they know what the sacrifice was going to be? My parents certianly did not know what the result was going to be for us kids.
If the leadership or my parents made a choice which damaged my life or my siblings life but that decision was done either in ignorance or without evil intent then I don't think it is fair to hold them liable.
If abuse back then was intentional and sinful then I certianly support exposing and addressing the abuser(s). The sexual abuse is the easiest and most obvious.
The abusive discipline is more dificult. Discipline of yesteryear that was thought of as normal is considered abusive by some today. There certianly was abusive discipline back then and it damaged us but who gets to decide when it was abusive and by whose standard. Even back then family discipline varied substantially, one child's discipline would be traumatic to another, and the dorm parent only used one method.
I had 4 or 5 dorm parents and all were different. At first the policy was that the ones who couldn't make it in the tribe ended up as dorm parents, a recipe for disaster which we found out. Then the policy was changed. So should we hold leadership accountable for letting unfit dorm parents be dorm parents when leadership didn't know they were unfit as dorm parents (they were not able to fit in the tribe but leadreship didn't know that either until it was tried)?
In summary, I think that if an act or decision was done with the right attitude then it isn't fair to go after them now. If the act or decision was done with the wrong sinful attitude, go after them and you have my full support. Unfortunately sometimes it is difficult to know.

This thread is really challenging my thoughts. As an older person, I do relate to the fact that standards for what was considered within "the norm" in regard to child discipline, etc. have changed over the years. At the same time, I feel that there are still models of child-rearing presently being taught that even now contain the seeds of extreme and unreasonable child-rearing methods, such as "Growing Kids God's Way", or whatever other name that method is now being given. I feel that too many parents tend to think of their children as their "property", and that leads to treating them in unkind ways ... beginning with letting a hungry infant cry helplessly in their crib because the parent wants to be able to sleep through the night, so the child must be conditioned to do so. Not for the good of the baby, but for the convenience of the parent.
I am searching my own heart and memories, thinking about how often my own treatment of my precious children had more to do with what was convenient for me, rather than what was best for them. Or being driven more by putting on a good appearance to others rather than the needs of my kids. "Oh, your children are so well behaved!" Isn't that what we all wanted to hear? So we controlled them with the fear of "Mr Helper", the infamous paddle that was modeled to us as young parents in NTM training. (There was a "Mr Helper" hanging in the toddler room, for the use of other adults on the tender bottom of my 18-month-old! Dear God, why did we accept that????)
This philosophy set us up for all that our children suffered. Who should be held accountable for such abuses? All of us are guilty.
There are so many thoughts in my head about the closed, cult-like mentality of NTM and how it has fostered the abuse of our most valuable gifts from God ... our own children.
My heart is very heavy about this and I feel I could type forever .... so many facets of this and such an unhealthy atmosphere that we all participated in.
Terrible. Sad. Terribly sad.