MK forum

Ooops! I thought I was highlighting the word, not changing the color of the font. I guess I should preview first. I had changed the font to yellow and it couldn't be seen. This can be seen.

not expose either themselves or the perpetrator prematurely.

@Hurt-n-hopeful. so weird that you said you didn't sleep well recently. In fact, last night I had a terrible dream that someone I knew was attacking verbally me for having posted anything on this forum.

Today I was reading and I found these words:
"People were also bringing babies to Jesus to have him touch them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." Luke 18: 15-17

I am not sure why, on this type of forum, one has to feel obligated to share the "bad" with the "good" truth. This forum is for exposing and dealing with a crime, namely, the abuse of CHILDREN who were dependent upon these adults.

Being sinful, acting sinfully, responding in a verbally abusive way to someone once, or as an adult, is a whole different story than sexually, physically and mentally abusing children left in your care. In fact, sexual and physical abuse of children is ALWAYS a crime as far as I know the law.

Two adults can decide to go at it and punch each other out or call each other names and say "Well, let's forgive and forget." Molesting, raping, beating, caning, torturing, treating children ages 17 and under- even 18 in some of these cases- where they are NOT adults, not recognized by the law or society as adults, is NOT up for debate as far as "what do we do?" The laws of this land and other countries make it very clear what is to be done. Whether there is forgiveness (and typically that means the abused is pressured into saying "It's OK" when the criminal "apologizes"), good feelings, remorse or repentance. Sorry, but if I accost the President of the United States and say "Oh, I'm so sorry. I was having a bad day, but I see the light of day now and want to apologize for my criminal activity" guess what? I'm still going to jail.

To all of you here that were abused, have loved ones who were abused... you have the RIGHT to speak out and be heard; to state what happened in whatever awful, nasty-sounding, graphic terms you have to (let's not sugar-coat it); to INSIST that the criminals are dealt with according to criminal law and to require that NTM goes to the fullest extent, and not just say a few guarded words to keep the peace.

I posted a small snippet about my story with my church in another thread somewhere. The perp wanted to have a meeting with our family, including my young daughter, to "apologize." My husband said "OK." I said 'NOT ON YOUR LIFE.' No way, no how was I going to subject us to being criminalized all over again because this 'Christian' man wanted to weep and cry and tell us how sorry he is, especially not to my young daughter. Too many people are willing to accept that behavior, which to me is being abused all over again; too many spiritual leaders are quick to expect Christians to accept any and all 'apologies' because to do so means you accept what Christ did on the cross for you, so why can't you accept this other person's sincerest "Oops, sorry."

I'm rambling now, so I will stop. Abuse of children infuriates me. Makes me want to spit nails. Makes me sick. And Christians wanting to cover it up, make it sweetness and light by saying 'Let's forgive and forget and move on' well.... I can only say Praise the Lord that one day HE will be the ultimate judge.

"I posted a small snippet about my story with my church in another thread somewhere. The perp wanted to have a meeting with our family, including my young daughter, to "apologize." My husband said "OK." I said 'NOT ON YOUR LIFE.' No way, no how was I going to subject us to being criminalized all over again because this 'Christian' man wanted to weep and cry and tell us how sorry he is, especially not to my young daughter. Too many people are willing to accept that behavior, which to me is being abused all over again; too many spiritual leaders are quick to expect Christians to accept any and all 'apologies' because to do so means you accept what Christ did on the cross for you, so why can't you accept this other person's sincerest "Oops, sorry."

I'm rambling now, so I will stop. Abuse of children infuriates me. Makes me want to spit nails. Makes me sick. And Christians wanting to cover it up, make it sweetness and light by saying 'Let's forgive and forget and move on' well.... I can only say Praise the Lord that one day HE will be the ultimate judge."

To Mrs. M: I do not know the circumstances of your particular situation. However, it is Biblical to call for repentance on the part of the offender to go before the one offended and ask forgiveness. I think there is not much attention paid to the difference between saying one is "sorry" and asking for forgiveness. In the latter instance, the one asking forgiveness is acknowledging their actions were sinful, wrong, and a violation of God's standards and an offense towards the one sinned against; whereas, in the former instance, merely saying one is sorry often does not incorporate any notion that actions done were sinful. Instead, oftentimes, "sorry" merely evidences one's chagrin at being caught. In your case, understanding I know not much about it, if the offender was merely desiring to "apologize" (aka "be sorry") then I can totally understand your position.

However, even when one has asked for forgiveness, such an act does not negate ensuing consequences. David asked for, and was granted, forgiveness by God for his sin against Bathsheba and Uriah, yet God still required the consequences of David's sinful act to be meted out. The immediate consequence was the death of David's infant son. There were other consequences that reverberated and rippled out from David's acts, namely the countless intra-familial struggles within David's family.

My point is that genuine repentance does acknowledge one's guilt, often to the one offended. True repentance will accept any consequence attendant with one's actions. Such consequences DO NOT include "making sweetness and light" and forgetting and moving on. That attitude makes a mockery of true forgiveness, comes close to being heretical, and is nothing more than sloppy love. True forgiveness, does not happen overnight and is a process. God realizes we are finite and not like Him in this regard. Yet He still calls us to afford the offender with the platform to repent, seek forgiveness and then, on our part, to forgive that offender through the Power of the Spirit.

Please understand, though, I am not at all suggesting this is easy or minimizing how painful the process of forgiving another can be. My sibling was abused and I suffered emotional and spiritual abuse during my time at Via. . .I know of what I speak.

Hi Publius,

I understand exactly what you mean, and after I posted I realized it might bring about subsequent posts about me not being forgiving.

So I will further elaborate - my husband went to the meeting with the understanding that he was 'accepting' the apology as the spiritual head of our household. Yes, I believe the apology was more mere words than heartfelt action, which was my beef. I certainly am not the Ultimate Judge and I know this. However, I judge the situation for what I see it is: A desire for the abuser to get back into good graces without really repenting his sin and doing what is really needful in this case. But I don't want to detract from the issues *here* on this forum with my story. I just wanted to merely relate that in many cases, the "I'm sorrys" are just a form of saying what needs to be said in hopes that the abuser won't be prosecuted, can say he repented and move on, without little thought to the true nature of the crime.

I guess by posting a snippet of our story, I wanted to encourage all of you here in acknowledging that abuse is horrific... whether it was sexual or physical, whether it happened 'only once' or multiple times, and that if you did suffer abuse, you KNOW you suffered abuse and you don't need anyone questioning whether what you suffered was really abuse or just someone having a bad day at your expense. Does that make sense?

I was taking issue more with the poster who stated that we all sin, we're all at one time or another 'abusive' to someone and that all parents could be deemed abusive nowadays. I think that detracts from the horrendous nature of the crimes committed against so many here and downplays and belittles it. I don't want to see that happen. People who are abused have enough trouble even stating that it was really ABUSE (using words like 'spankings' or 'yelling' or 'he just touched me once') without others making an almost rating scale of it.

I hope you know, Publius, that except for trying to explain more on my own situation, I not directing this comments at you. And again, I ramble...

Mrs M.:

I think we understand each other perfectly. My earlier reply was more for the sake of others, but glad you understood my position, as well.

As you can see, many of us suffered (among other things) spiritual abuse during our time at Via, where the Bible was taken out of context, or downright used incorrectly to justify sinful actions, thereby providing refuge for the offenders. It is easy to see how some might "rebel" (I use that term loosely here as it has a certain connotation for those who attended Via), at forgiveness because that term was used sloppily in the past. In other words, as someone stated earlier, they were urged to "forgive and move on", when in fact nothing of consequence had happened on the part of the abuser. Removal from a position occurred, but no accountability as to why as that person remained within the mission (even within that school!). Thus, while the "powers that be" urged "forgiveness" like some pronouncement from Olympus, true repentance on the part of the offender was never demanded, nor actions taken by the organization that shielded him, all the while making a mockery of the true victim which was evidenced by how others in NTM treated that person and their family.

At the same time, perhaps the person who attempted to make the point that we all have undergone "abuse" at one point did so a bit inartfully. Truly, in a society where any physical correction of a child can foster a call to social services, there is concern to be cautious in calling "spanking" abuse, when it's just a good old fashioned spanking. Make sense? I think that is what that person meant to say. I agree with that sentiment, so far as that goes. However, spanking a kid with a hose, making them kneel on the ground on uncooked rice as punishment, listening in on private phone conversations between a child and their parent, or fashioning a spanking stick with the phrase "I need Thee every hour," engraved on one side is just downright malevolent, sadistic, WRONG, and ABUSIVE! Frankly, those are Gestapo-like tactics! Those people should NEVER have been in positions of authority. Those who knew and kept quiet will pay the price in this life or the next. As Dante is reported to have said, "The hottest circles in hell are reserved for those who, in a time of moral crisis, maintain their neutrality."