MK forum

I think this discussion is going a bit too far, but I do think that NTM needs to publicly identify the known abusers who have been dismissed or disciplined in the past. The people who were affected, directly or indirectly, deserve to know, as do other organizations they might be working with.

Thank you. Community Organizer for your wonderful insights. You are a breathe of fresh air. Perhaps since Red Baron is concerned about NTM's financial standing, he could fly over to Ministry Watch to get a clear view of the funds NTM has in reserve. NTM has proudly been a member for over five years now, promotes of their Organization site that they are a member. One million dollors will hardly make a dent in their funds at all. Come on folks, do the research, it's just not that hard.

My Friend has broken her silence... Thursday, Sept 16th... Posted in this topic and Aritao

Hmmm....this was cut off on the side but i get the jist... who the heck is this Red Baron person? A blind person? A seeing person wearing rose tinted glasses? I appreciate that h/she is "defending" NTM but really? No one has said that the core of what NTM was based on, witnessing for Christ and winning souls to Jesus was anything to be brought down. I think Red Baron missed the point. NTM, I believe, was based on Godly principles but like any other organization/government/group, it's leadership is comprised of HUMANS- and as humans, there is no way mistakes can't be made - I think this person missed the point that what is being asked for is "simple" - maybe that's the wrong term- maybe clear is more accurate. OWN UP TO THE MISTAKES, STOP COVERING FOR THOSE WHO DID WRONG, DO WHATEVER IS HUMANLY POSSIBLE TO RIGHT THE WRONG and above all, DON'T LET HISTORY REPEAT ITSELF-EVER. NOT NOW, NOT TOMORROW, NOT EVEN 3 HOURS FROM NOW. No one has said there aren't good people within NTM or its leadership. I believe it was posted even that there are good people still within NTM- my parents were part of that organization, and they were good people- I swear my mom has and dad had the biggest heart out there for the people- possibly to a fault, but I've never met anyone with bigger hearts than theirs. No one is discounting what they did as missionaries, or down playing what other missionaries are doing for the Lord. But the ends does not justify the means. Turning a blind eye to what was done, sweeping it under the rug, taking no action - is the same as condoning what happened. Act now, ask forgiveness later is NOT an option when it comes to these types of incidents...especially when history has proven to repeat itself both in the field and in corporate leadership. I wonder, if NTM Sanford leadership had had one of their own daughters/sons as a victim, how different a reaction would have taken place? Would there not have been swift justice from the perp being dismissed/fired to criminal charges filed to the full extent of the law? Would they have not made sure that that person was registered on every possible sex offenders list nation wide, if not world wide? So why, then, was that type of action NOT taken when the first reports were submitted, when the first suspicions were raised? The Bible itself says Children are a gift from the Lord, who are we as parents, to take that so lightly? I feel for those parents who did go to leadership and were basically snuffed out. Those in leadership should be the first to step up and protect the innocent, fight and protect those who cannot fight for themselves, for those Leaders are carrying the responsibility of guidance, direction, and even protection of so many lives! Leadership in an organization where God is supposed to be the ultimate leader and Head, means that they should be striving to live the ultimate godly, Spirit-filled lives, where Christ exudes from every cell in their being. And Christ did not push away or turn away the children that came to Him- in fact, he reprimanded the disciples for trying to do so - so then why does the NTM Leadership by covering up what went on, not investigating other cases in other fields, in effect, turn away Christ's children? Where is the Christ-like attitude and Spirit in those actions?

I'll shut up now, because my soap box is getting bigger....

Clipped from community_organizer
JerryB: You say this discussion is going too far......................................Quick question: Do you believe crimes have been committed, yes or no?

My guess is that Jerry is referring to your increased..., shall we say, exuberance? I have laughed as I read your recent posts. I enjoy your animation, your intensity and passion. I do have to say though, that I would feel attacked if you were addressing me with your words. I laughed at your "lost in space" reference. However, it is name-calling. It seems that you have gone on the offensive in this discussion and a danger is that when we are on the offensive it is easy for us to unnecessarily offend. Intensity and passion are great. At least I hope so, as that is what I am like. I enjoy how you express your intensity and passion. However, it is easy to get carried beyond what is helpful or reasonable when we are caught up in our passion. Is it helpful to attack Red Baron? Is it reasonable to think that JerryB doesn't believe these people have done wrong? I think the answer is 'no' to both questions.

I was thinking about that aspect and looked up felonies and found a cite for potential immigrants that had a list of aggravated felonies, and not first but third on the list was sexual abuse of a minor. All these crimes exclude immigrants who have been convicted of them from ever entering the U.S. legally. My point here is, the very seriousness of which this crime is viewed by government should answer any questions as to the rightness of turning in someone who commits such a crime.

The thing is, by God's grace and Jesus' sacrifice we have forgiveness, but we still have to accept the consequences of our actions. Scripture is clear on that point. So it boggles my mind when I read that somebody who, because he was "broken and sorry" about committing an aggravated felony, has received a pass on this.

As for the sin, Jesus himself talks about the seriousness of sinning against children, which has probably come to all our minds as we read these posts. I think it is the only offense which Jesus says it would be better to have a millstone tied around the person's neck and tossed into the sea--and it is recorded in three Gospels. The Holy Spirit had it preserved for all of us to take heed and not miss it.

I am an MK (not with NTM) and went to boarding school. I understand the dynamics of the situation to some extent, at least as much as an outsider can. I also happen to be a college professor and my academic expertise is in Leadership.

According to the leadership literature, leaders lead because they have a vision of a changed world that others desire. A big part of the literature talks about Followership. Followers agree with the vision and so voluntarily follow the leader. Said differently, leadership is granted by the followers. If leaders coerce the followers, they are no longer leaders. They are dictators in a leadership position.

Followership comes in many forms and one of the most important forms is the trusted Dissenter. The Dissenter has the same vision as the leader but serves as the person who questions the leader’s assumptions. Unless the leader has someone continuously questioning his or her assumptions, it is easy for the leader to become corrupt (power corrupts…). The Dissenter serves the vision and the other followers by keeping the leader honest and true to the vision.

Something to think about.

And I see the discussion changed during the time I was composing the previous post. Ah well, it should be attached to the discussion on "should people disagree with Godly leaders." Yup, they should. Should they submit? That depends on the situation.

If anyone wants more information on what research has found about leaders and followers, here is a pretty good, readable book. Read the reviews to see if you are interested.

http://www.amazon.com/Courageous-Follower-Standing-Our-Leaders/product-reviews/1605092738/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1