MK forum

I'm sure Pat is awesome, amazing, and very proficient. That is NOT the issue. The issue for me is that NTM is not listening to it's victims & is silently & arrogantly doing whatever the hell it wants - MK's and their worthless ingratitude be damned. NTM can no longer claim ignorance and remorse for an investigation going wrong. They are very aware that we want GRACE and can only be remotely trusted by me (& likely Arara Azul & Courageous & Sitting Duck & many others) if they demonstrate sensitivity & wisdom by dropping their current investigational agenda & allow GRACE to resume its role in our quest for truth, justice & healing.
It's disgusting, how they throw their sanctimonious silence all over our beaten hearts.
I find Sitting Duck's anger so incredibly refreshing & beautiful - because SD was SUCH a well-behaved silent victim when he was imprisoned in the hell so many of us knew.
And I think CK's evaluations of XYZAB are great - funny & likely true.
You disgruntled ones trying to figure out what we want - demand GRACE. We've been brutalized by NTM & its whitewashed ways for a lifetime. Help us get access to a completely (!!!!!!!) independent investigation - with no fingerprints of NTM's involvement (other than cooperation)

I do disagree with you on one thing, Sitting Duck. I do not view Andy & Tibby as accurate representations of NTM. I see them as decent individuals who are trying to do the right thing with their hands tied to the helm of NTM's whitewashed, rotted, sinking ship. They are courageous enough to be a presence here in our embittered & vengeful midst - but they are alone. I'm sure if they were to implicate NTM as stupid and foolish and thoughtless, NTM would object. But since they are taking the blame personally, NTM, Larry & Sanford can all remain calm and uninvolved.

From the "Andy and Tibby" thread:

Andy said: I'm not on our US executive board, but I work closely with several members & have been through thick and thin with them. As board members they cannot be reckless with NTM Inc, but they have been reckless with their own lives and well being in order to work through the GRACE report recommendations and push ahead on the next investigative process. I've seen the tears, not for NTM but for the survivors, and I know firsthand the determination to do what is right. I am not trying to imply here that NTM leaders should be pitied, but rather the pain and the determination I've seen first hand tells me I'm dealing with people of integrity.

Doesn't sound like Andy thinks he's alone....

going back to earlier posts, are we all in agreement that questioning the motives of current NTM members should be viewed on a equal playing field as questioning the motives of former NTM members?

so, when a former NTM member questions the motives of a current NTM member and then an MK or otherwise questions the motive of the former NTM member in questioning the current NTM member...why is the former acceptable but the latter is not?

XYZ your posts have helped me understand more. Thank you. NTO, I want Grace to do the investigations. Ornery and any other people with legal experience, what would be the ramifications of the mks getting together and telling NTO that they will not participate with the mission unless they use Grace? Who would be willing to take an alternative approach to getting their needs met? For Sherpa, I am suggesting a lawsuit if NTO does not provide a method for resolving the problem which is acceptable to the victims. It is on the victimizer to provide the approach that the victims want. If people honestly want things to change, there will need to be leaders who have the confidence of those they represent. Do the other fields have such leaders? Are you standing together as a unit?

It is not enough for the Fanda Eagles to have had such leaders, each group needs strong leaders who are acceptable to the members. Taking a strong stance does and will scare a number of people. There is a strong thread of enmeshment with NTO on these forums. What I mean in short form is, NTO and our parents still have major power over us. If we do anything which they disaprove of, we cringe and run. We even think God will turn against us and abandon us. If NTO and our families turn against us, it will be painful, but we will not die. Many of us are convinced deeper than in our concious minds that God will destroy us the same way NTO and our families have done if we go against NTO and our families.

Thai MK, I am still processing what you have said. I think I am missing a large piece still unfortunately. When it comes to questioning NTO current members, it is about power. NTO has the power and momentum on their side. They were the victimizers. The victims, and those who participated in past collusion, are questioning an organization with a strong track record. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. NTO chose GRACE and victims were impressed. It gave NTO a black eye and they decided to not use GRACE. It looks like they are going back to past behavior.

I've got to stop now and get away from this. My brain is on overload. Raz what we need is The Voice of Pain, maybe they will be able to join us at some time.

Once upon a time, I went to graduate school at a certain university. There were a lot of problems at that university at that time that needed fixing. As such, the board of regents fired the then current president of the university and hired an interim president - a hard core trial attorney who was running the trial advocacy program at the university's law school at the time.

This guy came in, fired a lot of people, turned things upside down, made a lot of changes, ticked a lot of people off, and then promptly resigned from the position to take a job at another university. And, that was the way it was intended to be.

Moral of the story - in many private universities and other institutions, when big changes have to be made, temporary "interim" leadership is often brought in to shake things up. Because this leadership makes very few friends and lots of enemies during this process, they move on shortly after the dirty work is done so that new "untainted" leadership can move on with business.

NTO, please consider some form of this methodology.

[quote="Thai MK"]going back to earlier posts, are we all in agreement that questioning the motives of current NTM members should be viewed on a equal playing field as questioning the motives of former NTM members?

Yes, they should be viewed equally. Some current NTO members go a LONG way back.

We all come with our individual perspectives to this forum. And we are all limited in some ways as we look at the whole situation....by time/by experience/by being insiders or outsiders, etc. Each perspective KNOWS something that the others can't or don't.

You were brought up in NTO, but did not serve.
You were brought up in NTO and served for a long time, but not recently.
You served in NTO as an adult (non-mk,) but have not been "in" for a long time.
You are still serving in NTO as an adult (mk or non-mk.)
You are in training or just finished training and have not yet served (mk or non-mk.)
You were/are aware of others being abused by leaders.
You were/are being abused by leaders yourself.
You stayed because you thought you could help make changes.
You stayed because you didn't know what else to do to support yourself and your family.
You left.
You were kicked out.
And there are probably some scenarios I have overlooked.

As a very recent "in" person who goes back for some time, I say that current NTO members are doing the same things the former NTO members did. Maybe especially if they go WAY back. Or maybe if they are big GROUP THINKers. Don't assume anything. Watch out! (No, not EVERYone. But how many apples does it take to you-know-what?)

From my perspective, I see the SAME abuses happening very recently that happened a long time ago.

I vote GRACE.

Now that friends, is chilling to the spirit.

not good news to hear, mosquito...