[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4756: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3891)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4758: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3891)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4759: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3891)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4760: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3891)
MK forum • View topic - Picky, picky, picky: A thread for theological pedants

MK forum

Discuss anything MK here
It is currently Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:49 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 186 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 ... 19  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:46 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:10 pm
Posts: 868
Which brings us to my first reason.

Careless use of the word forgiveness can lead us to misunderstand God's forgiveness of us.

Going back to the Jean Dye Johnson/ Leonard Bloomfield definition of meaning, it cannot be otherwise. If we consistently, unconsciously use forgiveness to mean "letting things go because we can't do anything about them" or some other variant of "coming to terms with awful/ distasteful/ evil events," we will of necessity develop a new set of reactions to the word.

What we need to do is get our understanding of forgiveness from the Bible, not import our own ideas into it. What situations in the Bible do we find the word used? What were the circumstances? Did God forgive us because there was nothing else he could do? Did he simply overlook sin so that we can fellowship with him? Was his only alternative bitterness?

If you doubt the validity of this point, just experiment with other words. Make a list of words that you know have changed meanings in the general population over the years and try to use them in their former sense. Negro would be a good place to start. . . and stop. Yet, Dr. Martin Luther King used the word almost exclusively.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:05 pm
Posts: 93
I don't know if it's technically correct or not to say that God forgives unrepentent people, but he sure has made a lot of effort in that direction. He loved us while we were still sinners (I take that to mean unrepentant sinners), enough to demonstrate his love in a way that was costly and dramatic.

Maybe that one-sided effort did not technically accomplish the forgiveness transaction, but it definitely reflects God's heart for restored relationships with us. It definitely reflects his desire to not punish us according to what we deserve. It definitely reflects a yearning for good things for us.

It seems to me that when we really, really understand and appreciate the fact that we are on the receiving end of all this undeserved love and care, compassion naturally flows out of us to others, even those who don't deserve it. When that happens it is a truly miraculous evidence of God's footprint in our hearts - and that is a good thing!

I am not advocating for no consequences for abusers, but rather that our heart motive toward them reflects God's heart toward us, even as we pursue appropriate consequences.

Gene, do I have any common ground with you here?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:03 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:10 pm
Posts: 868


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:10 pm
Posts: 868
A recent case in the Bangkok Criminal Court involved a foreigner who had violated Thai law. Upon changing his plea from "not guilty" to "guilty," he was sentenced to time served and ordered deported. This was as favorable an outcome as he could have hoped for, and he profusely thanked the judge. Much to his dismay, the judge barely nodded an acknowledgement as he left the courtroom. Why?

The judge had not done the man a personal favor. He did not forgive the man his offense; he sentenced him upon his guilty plea. And, the sentence was in line with what the law stipulates. In a word, the judge's personal feelings towards the man formed no part of his decision. The judge was motivated and guided by law, by precedent, by justice, not by compassion. Therefore, accepting the prisoner's thanks, regardless of how heartfelt and sincere, would have been inappropriate, a tacit admission that he had shown partiality.

Impartiality is an ancient and honored tradition, one that is emphasized repeatedly in the Old Testament, and followed in all civilized countries today. A court of law's primary relationship to the accused is that of judge. Any other relationship is coincidental. In fact, if too closely related to the accused, by blood or sympathy, a judge would not be deemed fit to preside at a trial.

The New Testament draws heavily on the imagery of earthly tribunals when it describes our relationship with the Lord, the Judge of all the earth. The parallels are numerous, but there are also some very instructive differences. The most an earthly judge can do is declare a defendant not guilty. The law exists to condemn or exonerate, not to praise, men. Our heavenly Judge, in vivid contrast, declares us more than "not guilty." He declares us righteous - a statement affirming our positive standing based on the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ and His death for us.

And, declared righteous by our Judge, we find that the Judge is also our Father! Moving far beyond what any court could do, He glorifies us. Unlike the judge in Bangkok, He can love us, judge our sins in Christ on the cross, justify us on that basis, glorify us and accept our worshipful thanks, all with no conflicts of interest, no partiality, no compromise of His own holiness.

"Whom he justified, them he also glorified." Romans 8.30 Our Creator. Our Judge. Our Father. Our Friend.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:12 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:07 pm
Posts: 105
Here are some questions that I have been wrestling with -

Type of sin and forgivness:

Forgiveness of sins in ignorance, weakness or bondage, etc. (Either by overlooking the sin or by bringing it to the attention of the offender so that he/she has an opportunity to repent – as many times as necessary, assuming sincere repentance.)

Forgiveness of defiant sins – unrepentant sinner – is this possible? I.e. the offender knows he has committed sin; the offender persists in sinning. (There is a point where it becomes impossible for a person to repent.)

Authority and forgiveness:

Forgiving sins that are illegal (that is, sins that also break the laws of the land):
1. ‘Forgiveness’ by not reporting / not pressing charges…at what point does the church become accomplice?
(Question for the lawyers!) What exactly does the church ‘forgive’ in this case? Examples:
a. Church member who is speeding and cuts you off
b. Jean Valjean (main character in Le Miserable)
c. an NTM pedophile

2. ‘Forgiveness’ of a sin that illegal but committed outside the jurisdiction of the laws of the land? What should the church do then?

What are the bases for forgiveness? What authority do we have to forgive? Do we have the authority to forgive illegal sins (Rom. 13:4)? Do we have the authority to forgive what God has not/not yet? i.e. Jn.20:23 - Is our forgiveness effectual in the removal of the offender’s sin? i.e. Jesus’ cry, “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.”

And here’s, I think, a paradox: God alone can forgive sin (Mk 2:7, Lk 5:21), and we are commanded to forgive (Lk. 11:4, 17:3). So what exactly does our forgiving someone do? :)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:19 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:05 pm
Posts: 93


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:26 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 11:27 pm
Posts: 5156
Kathy, it seems to me ... that you are making a lot of sense. ;)

As an impressionable 19-year-old, I sat for endless hours in Bible School lectures while opinionated male teachers told me the exact meaning of every word of every verse in the Authorized King James Bible (Scofield, of course). I took it all in, I wrote it all down.

Four decades later, I don't live in that box anymore.

My God can't be put in a box. He can't be comprehended, analyzed or explained, by my puny human brain.

But my heart ... my heart beats to the rhythm of his love ...

I am forever his.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:10 pm
Posts: 868


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:24 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:10 pm
Posts: 868


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:05 pm
Posts: 93
Gene, You got me on that one. :) I did say "definitely' a lot, which could give the impression that I think I've got it all figured out. So I am glad for this chance to clarify my attitude. I do not want to be dogmatic. Whether I specifically say "it seems to me" or not, that is the attitude in which I want to communicate. So when I say "defintely", please read that to mean "it definitely seems to me". I am very passionate about proclaiming God's love, which is why I used the word definitely.

I am glad you brought this up because it leads into an important topic.... We all are on different places in our journey with God. We can help each other by sharing what we are learning in our own journey, listening to what they are learning in their journey and by trusting the Holy Spirit to lead us all into truth in His way and His time.

If we happen to be right in a certain belief or opinion and others agree with us, praise the Lord! We are all on the right track! But it is possible that we may be wrong, even in the things we feel definite about. By remembering that there is always more for us to learn/relearn/unlearn, we stay teachable. But if the Holy Spirit is not confirming that a change in our thinking is in order, I think we have a green light to keep expressing our beliefs graciously while praying for the Spirit to guide us all into truth. I guess the main thing is for us to be humble learner-teachers.

Thank you for clarifying what you heard me saying. It is so easy to be minunderstood in verbal communication much less written communication!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 186 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 ... 19  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group