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MK forum • View topic - Picky, picky, picky: A thread for theological pedants

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:34 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:19 pm 
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down and out: Loved your question------If every one of NTMs leaders would crawl to us on their knees through broken glass and hand us each a million dollars...would we be healed?

The answer is YES, YES, YES! :)


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:25 pm 
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??? I'm pretty sure the answer is NO.

No amount of money or bleeding knees will give you back what was taken.

No.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:34 pm 
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But a certain pedophile behind bars would make a very good start...


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:58 pm 
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I can't speak to why other "former ntmers" come to this board, we all have our own reasons I guess. For most, there is more than one reason, I would imagine, as there is for me. First and foremost, we are in the dark and want some light. We want to be able to talk about things, work through things in a forum that will allow us to express ourselves, yet have what we say held to the light. I think in a way, that may be Kari's goal, too. Enough with the darkness. Too much is said in private among people who agree, without being held accountable in the open.

Hopefully healing is taking place here. I pray so!

Other good things are happening: an open discussion about modern missions, including boarding schools; what scripture really says about leadership; a sharing among the first ntmers, those who were around from the 70's to the early 90's, the current ntmers; a connection between former dorm mates and shared experiences, good and bad; exposure of abuse in missions, yes, and also the church.

This board is not the be-all and end all, but I think can be a place to help those in pain and those of us just wondering what those years we spent in NTM were all about.

The reason I come to this particular thread is there aren't many places I know of that I can have a thoughtful discussion about scripture and be able to take the time to think about it before responding. I don't necessarily agree with everything I read, which is why I like it.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:19 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:40 pm 
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Here is what the Merriam Webster dictionary says about the origin of our English word vengeance:

Middle English, from Anglo French, from venger to avenge, from Latin vindicare to lay claim to, avenge more at Vindicate

Vindicate: definitions: Obsolete: to set free: deliver; Avenge; To free from allegation or blame

I think we have a desire for justice that is sometimes a natural desire for vengeance, but there is also a desire for justice in the vindication sense of the word of being set free.

Many in this forum are wrestling with the practical application of justice, vengeance, vindication, and forgiveness. It's a tough subject, but worth discussing.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:53 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 11:06 am 
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down and out: That is what I find most mystifying. How people who knew the Word and Jesus could allow someone who preached you could lose your salvation to be in any position of authority at all and especially over children is beyond my comprehension.

Remember that Jesus has complete authority over the powers of darkness and that they were begging Jesus to not cast them out. He is far more powerful than our own minds and the PoD would have us believe.

For you, down and out, with prayers:

What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written:
“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”[j]

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[k] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 6:23 am 
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A lot of good, positive things are happening among victims, their friends and their families. This thread is not meant to detract from that. In fact, it is intended to encourage it, and give some definition to it. I am not posting just to be argumentative. If it is helpful to anyone, I will be gratified. If others want to add to the discussion, I will be indebted to them.

Many victims will read (or just remember) a passage from Scriptures that seems to teach that "revenge" is bad: "Avenge not yourselves." Taken together with a popular definition of "vengeance" (inflicting maximum pain on another in mindless retaliation for wrongs), good, decent people are conflicted in their own hearts: Is it even good to want the criminal to be punished? Isn't this a form of taking revenge? Did you or did you not forgive the miscreant?

This is a perversion of forgiveness and justice alike. Such reasoning serves to protect corporate reputations, but at the expense of an unfair burden on the victims.

The dangers of poor, incomplete or false understanding of forgiveness are many. It can range from infrequent bouts of self doubt and wasted emotional energy to a perverted and perverse conception of what is right, normal and/ or desirable – as in the case of abused who become abusers.

So, here is where I am going with this: I believe the Scriptures teach that forgiveness is always and only for the benefit of the one forgiven. I base this on the analogy to God's forgiveness of us. God is not better off because we are forgiven, although we certainly are! Moreover, there is no Scripture where we are told to forgive for our own good, irrespective of others.

I also believe that forgiveness is always and only valid when it is based on justice – the payment of a penalty, the righting of a wrong.

Forgiveness seems to lead to the healing of the forgiven one as well. I'd like to look at some passages that have convinced me of this.

Yet, a lot of very good things are happening, many of them in full view of others here on this forum. If it isn't forgiveness, if it isn't healing, what is it? Which scriptural terms match the situation? Or, is God's word silent on the subject?


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