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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:20 am 
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Thank you for the many e-mails and the info that has flowed in the last 24 hours. The speed at which we have got the information we needed is unbelievable.
So far not one negative message, the overwhelming sentiment expressed is "go for it, do what ever it takes and can I help".
Taking into consideration some of the requests I have had, I am more than happy to pass on to the Australian media (it has to be the Australian media, trust me on this one, there is a very good reason for this), the names of any other offender. If we can get the names of anyone who committed rape, that would be our best avenue. Sexual offending is what the media will most want to go for (sorry Spiritual abuse won't do it, we will be dealing with the secular media, not the Timbucktoo Christian local weekly magazine).
I realise that for some people, emailing personal details to some balding unknown bloke from downunder might be a bit threatening, especially when he is working anonymously to most of you. But if you prefer to deal with a U.S. female citizen I'm pretty sure someone who has been helping me enormously will kindly act on your behalf. I'm just checking that option currently. I really don't need to know all your details (please don't take that as being I'm not interested), but what I do need to know is that when this gets going you are ready to tell your stories with facts and dates e.t.c. to those that will investigate this properly. Having several repositories for information also is a safeguard in case for some reason I become incapacitated, such as by computer failure or natural disaster (and I know about those of late).

Any questions, please feel free to ask.

Bemused


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:07 pm 
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Just a couple of more things that will help us. We have some "dear friends" who we would really like to know the whereabouts of and we seem to have lost contact. If anyone knows if our "dear friends" are still alive and where they are we would be ever so grateful: ;)

Richard Hine from the U.K.
Les Emory
Mark Ertl
and
Dave McLaren (especially)

Also does anyone know if NTM has dismissed or investigated any member for child porn activities (not adult porn, it isn't an offence), don't need names, just a definite yes. The more recent the better, because then the investigation comes into recent history and will suggest that offending is still going on. And if there is a whiff this is happening, use your immagination as to what questions will be asked and by who.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:24 pm 
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You might want to move this into a different topic.

Joel Price plead guilty to child porn charges around the beginning of 2009 and was sentenced to a little over five years.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2008-12-27/news/missionary27_1_child-pornography-tribes-investigation

and on this site: http://fandaeagles.com/2009/07/ntm-and-child-porn/

Also, George Goolde was convicted and sentenced to 50 years for child abuse and molestation.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:06 pm 
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Brilliant. This really helps. Will try and get this into a new topic, think you are right.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:06 am 
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I am sorely tempted to renew some of my earlier observations on this thread. My dear friends and readers can spare me (not to say themselves!) that little hassle by a quick review on your own!

While I am keeping this thread deadly serious, I want to bring out another area of weak, deviant and/ or delusional theology that I believe has contributed to the sorry condition of NTM to this present hour. I ask for your help...

What I refer to is "Theology by Slogan." It is the case in every single discipline in the world that certain shortcuts are taken to avoid having to repeatedly speak volumes every time a certain subject comes up. Computer jargon, which I found very intimidating the first time it rolled over me, is quite easy to master on a very rudimentary level. Data, programs, paste, highlight.... These mean nothing to the uninitiated. But, once you catch on, there is no need to explain every single word every time.

All that to say this: It's fine to use jargon. In fact, the Bible uses it a lot. An obvious example is "the cross" which does not refer only to the physical implement of execution.

The rub comes when people play fast and loose with the Word and come up with their own slogans, many of which are unintelligible to "outsiders."

Here is an example of what I mean: "God is more interested in what He can do in you than He is in what He can do through you."

Whatever element of truth is in that statement got lost in the application. Case in point: Frank Parker and NTM's desire not to ruin his ministry.

Next....


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:43 pm 
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Gene Long wrote:
Maybe some examples from my own experiences will help illustrate ways that perspective can be lost. I'm sure others will be able to add to this list, whether from the standpoint of an adult member of NTM or an MK. Some have been/ are both MKs and adult missionaries; they must have some real humdingers to share. Please do so!

I mentioned that is often the very best option to overlook certain irritations of life. In my 25 years as a Triber, I was an occasional irritation to others, irritations that were not often overlooked.

Item: I was too generous with the tribal people. I did not require or even ask others to be, but I was. I was called "controlling" because I did not want to violate my own conscience, even though I did not demand that others follow suit.

Item: I often went without a shirt.

Item: I had answers for questions people asked me. This was in the days before FAQs, something that even NTM has taken refuge in now. In those days, having answers was a sign of being proud.

Item: My yard was often messy, my kids didn't adequately pick up after themselves.

Item: The outside faucet at my house was dripping.

These became huge issues, requiring the Field Committee to intervene and pronounce me "unapproachable." Requests for a scriptural definition, or even example, of "unapproachability" was taken as proof that I was, indeed, unapproachable, possibly legalistic and certainly unteachable.

Meanwhile, in the topsy-turvy world of NTM, things that did not fit into the "best overlooked" category were brushed aside.

Item: The Mantle, which, in a real sense, fell from Paul Flemming onto Ken Johnston. I just rolled my eyes and got about the work. Yet this kind of fanciful application of scripture undergirded – and undermined – a lot of what went on in NTM.

Item: Boarding schools are the best option for your children and ministry. I had temerity to question Macon Hare's article (Thank God for our Mission Schools) and was accused of being bothered by Satan. I took cover and got on with the job.

Item: God leads through leadership; Moses as an example of NTM leadership. All we really learned was to steer clear of leadership. . . and get on with the job.

Item: New Tribes Mission is a church. We knew it wasn't, but the job was more important than this picky point.

Item: Racism. Non-whites were not allowed to date whites at the Jackson campus of NTBI in the early 1980s, something I deplored. . . and, to my lasting shame, once counseled an ethnic Thai adopted by an American family to overlook.

Item: When other missionaries were mistreated by leadership, we sheep remained placid, thankful that it wasn't us. We got on with the job.

Quite in contrast to the first category of offenses, offenses that could have been easily overlooked but were inflated into questions of suitability to even serve as a missionary, those in this group were dismissed with, "Gene, I sure wish I served in a perfect mission." The obvious message: Nobody is perfect, just relax and get on with the job. I did. . .

I did, and so I have a great deal of sympathy with those Tribers who are now doing the same thing. It is very difficult to see the seriousness of the situation when you are in the midst of it. And, it's not made any easier by failing to evaluate things according to God's Word.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:51 pm 
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Gene Long wrote:
It is always easier to ask questions than to answer them! And, as answers are attempted, it will be easy to brush them off with, "Well, that's what was meant." I lightheartedly titled this thread "Picky, picky, picky: A thread for theological pedants" because I hope to encourage us all, myself included, to be meticulously accurate in our use of words; to say what we mean. That's a good, positive and helpful thing, even if it looks like pedantry to casual observers.

Mind you, even for pedants, it's acceptable to make certain assumptions. In fact, unless we're going to try to compose a systematic theology thread, we're going to have to do that. I don't feel a need to quote scriptures for every statement I make. But, if I make statements that seem inaccurate, they need to be explained or changed, based on scripture.

So, I'd like to begin with what will seem incredibly picky, picky, picky: Spiritual leadership. To save time, I'll even state my conclusion first.

Leaders in NTM, Inc. are not spiritual leaders as presented in the Bible. In other words, they are not elders, bishops, deacons, pastors or any other church office found in the Bible. Moreover, to arrogate to themselves the honor, duties or prerogatives of such dishonors the Lord and gives rise to unnecessary confusion, discord and conflict.

NTM, Inc. is not even a church in any sense that their own teaching recognizes a church - universal or local. Their leaders may well be members of local churches and even hold scriptural offices in that church. But, that does not make them an Elder in the Church of New Tribes Mission, Inc.

The church is important to Christ, to God. In Ephesians 5.25 we are told that Christ loved the church, and gave himself for her. The very same words are used in Galatians 2.20, where He "loved me, and gave himself for me." It is no small thing to intrude upon an individual's relationship with his Lord; it is no less so to do it with the heavenly Groom and His Bride. God's revealed plan is that qualified men serve in positions of spiritual leadership in local churches, not para-church organizations. Even messed up local churches are represented by scriptural example. There is no such thing as a "scriptural" para-church organization, and no room in such a group for biblical church offices.

Past leadership in NTM, Inc. has referred to the "high position, exalted position" of their leaders, based on their having been raised up by God to shepherd the flock. Present leadership still considers themselves to be spiritual leaders of their flock. This is defective theology, at best. It doesn't even match what they are attempting to do in church planting around the world. The model is to have the flock shepherded by local church leadership, not self-appointed men in another country.

Leaders in NTM, Inc. have no more responsibility, from a scriptural vantage point, for the spiritual care of their employees than any other Christian has for any other Christian, leaders or not. Or, to offer an example, a member of senior management in IBM who is a strong Christian has no more responsibility for the spiritual welfare of his subordinate who is a Christian than the subordinate has for him.

A member of senior management does have certain scriptural obligations to his subordinate, of course. Masters (employers we would call them today, though employees often feel like slaves!), are to provide their subordinates with what is right and fair (Colossians 4.1), showing the same concern for their welfare that employees are to show for the employer's (Ephesians 6.9). But, this is not a position of spiritual leadership ala the NTM, Inc. model.

NTM, Inc.'s leaders approach their flock graciously in love with concerns from the Word. When any sheep does not respond in the proper way, the shepherd's staff is laid aside and the boom is lowered; the sheep is fired. I do not say employees should never be fired. I do say that it is unscriptural to portray this as an exercise of church discipline. Indeed, it is a travesty of it.

Trying to wear the hat of the employer while carrying the staff of the shepherd only serves to confuse all concerned, and ensure that a good job is done neither as defacto employer nor pseudo-pastor. Sixty two years of NTM, Inc. history support this.

Comments, questions, corrections and insights solicited. I am not the only, and certainly not the best, theological pedant out there.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:27 pm 
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Boy, you said it, Gene!
It is just as hard to read the 2nd time as the 1st.
Too many painful memories come back...regarding us and others.
Yes, it happened that way.
There was no way out.
And you were left wondering, "Where is the Bible in all this?"
It wasn't.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:50 pm 
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Leaders in NTM, Inc. are not spiritual leaders as presented in the Bible. In other words, they are not elders, bishops, deacons, pastors or any other church office found in the Bible. Moreover, to arrogate to themselves the honor, duties or prerogatives of such dishonors the Lord and gives rise to unnecessary confusion, discord and conflict.

IT WAS UNNECESSARY!
ALL THAT WE WENT THRU SHOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED!
AND THAT HAS BEEN SAID BEFORE.
ALL THAT THE MKs WENT THRU NEVER SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED WITH SUCH "godly"
"leaders" WHO KNEW THE BIBLE SO WELL.
SOME CLASSES WE TOOK WERE JUST ONE BIBLE VERSE AFTER ANOTHER.
PRAISE GOD FOR THOSE WHO APPLIED THOSE VERSES AND LIVED BY THEM.
SHAME, SHAME ON THOSE WHO TOOK ADVANTAGE OF THEIR POSITION
AND OF OTHERS!!!
:!: :!:


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:50 pm 
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:roll: :roll:


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