MK forum

Gene wrote: "I also believe that forgiveness is always and only valid when it is based on justice – the payment of a penalty, the righting of a wrong."

IMHO, that sounds like the opposite of the meaning of the English word "forgive". My dictionary says, in defining forgive: "to grant relief from payment of a debt".

Your arguments aren't resonating with me, Gene.

Amen raz and d@o. Lots of rabbit holes to nowhere.

I believe that forgiveness is a choice that is based on justice. An offense has occurred and a penalty must be paid to right that wrong. The Pharisees got mad at Jesus because He said to the sick man "Your sins are forgiven take up your bed and walk". They said only God can forgive sin. This is true, only God ultimately has the power to forgive someone of their sin based on Christs sacrifice on the cross. When we choose to forgive someone of their offense against us we are saying that we release the final judgment to God. This is an ongoing process that we must keep doing whenever we are reminded of the offense. This does not mean that we say it's alright what they did, or that we don't feel anger, guilt, fear about what has happened. No! one must identify the feelings and deal with them, then one must accept what has happened because there is nothing one can do to change it, it happened that's that, then finally one must let it go and move on. This is an ongoing process, it is not a one time event, you keep going thru the process each time you are reminded of the offense. I think we have to keep working and praying to bring justice here and now for our own sake and others. God is trustworthy, He is in charge, He will rightly judge every person and His judgment is an eternal judgment. Forgiveness is a burden that will finally be lifted when God makes the world new. Until that day we can carry each others burdens and work for justice where and how we can.

Verywell said Tuti but some days it is easier just to grieve and rage.

Thank you for saying what others are only thinking! Without a little input, this thread is going to wander around and not really scratch where it's itching.

I started this thread because of a conviction that most, if not all, of NTM's problems can be traced back to an improper understanding and application of God's Word. For instance, the story of Miriam and Aaron speaking against Moses, an impetuous act that resulted in God's judgment, was often held up as an example of how Tribers were supposed to be in submission to leadership - never mind that Moses is ONLY used in the New Testament as a type of Christ, not church elders. Not that NTM leadership were church elders! Pointing out this detail was, back in the day, considered being unteachable, legalistic and chasing off down rabbit trails. It was called splitting hairs, and soundly ridiculed.

"God leads through leadership" won the day.

It's easy to be dismissive of others. It is hard work to align our thinking, even our words, with God's Word. I think the latter course is going to yield better results. I think a failure to do so is going to lead to further problems, even as it did with NTM.

"God leads through leadership," typical cultic teaching!! Convince people it's scriptural and you can control them. Nothing godly or scriptural about it!

Please, respect the thread that you are posting on. This thread is started by and for the benefit of theological pedants. Therefore expect pedantry here.

@jerry Bartlett
Yes it's OK to rage and grieve and feel negative emotions. David displays this many times in the psalms. He says he wants his enemies and Gods enemies ripped to pieces. Certain tribes in my people group would rip out the heart of their enemy and eat it. They were also head hunters and cannibals. Many of my people were fierce warriors, formidable in battle and fighting strategy. I'm not saying that you should go and rip your enemies heart out and eat it, the point is when you have been offended or a crime committed against you this will generate powerful emotions. One needs to find a constructive way of releasing these negative emotions because we can't go around ripping people to pieces. Talk it out, Journal it or buy a punching bag. I believe forgiveness can be a lifetime process, maybe that's why Jesus said 70 x 7 in answer to the question, "how many times do I forgive my brother?"