MK forum

I do think it's important in any discussion that everyone be allowed to share their opinion on a matter. What is not ok is that on a site where people are healing from abuse that includes scripture as a weapon, that scripture be used...as a weapon. When you site scripture, then follow it up with saying someone will lose favor if they do not agree with your opinion or interpretation of the scripture - that is using it as a weapon.

i think the conversation may be more helpful if we do no commingle too many distinct ideas/arguments/opinions in such as way as to confuse the real issues being discussed:

(1) civil (compensatory and/or punitive damages) vs. criminal (sexual offender registry, criminal sanctions)
(2) whether it is wrong, under any circumstance, to take a Christian brother to court vs. whether that proposition is being used as a "weapon" vs. whether it is wrong for that proposition to be used as a weapon vs. whether that verse is applicable at all
(3) compensation vs. profit vs. whether monetary compensation should be sought for non-monetary damage vs. whether monetary compensation for non-monetary damage = profit
(4) disagreeing with an opinion vs. disagreeing with the manner in which an opinion is given vs. advocating that an opinion should not have been given
(5) justice vs. bitterness vs. greed

these are important discussions to have. it just gets a little confusing what exactly people are advocating at times.

Thai MK: very good, very wise words!
Your insight is terrific.
Maybe I just think that because I'm a Thai MK too!

Here are some other thoughts on the matter of the rightness or wrongness of taking NTM to court and the Bible verses that speak on the topic, I Corinthians 6:1-7.

But first, I want to say that Sherpa’s statement, “if you go against God’s commands, good luck seeking his help when you need it”, is reflecting an Old Testament understanding of God’s interaction with people. But this is not how God interacts with us today. I am not trying to single Sherpa out for condemnation. This type of thinking about our relationship with God is SO, SO common! And it’s only been in the last year or so that my husband and I have really been getting a grip on the difference between a law-based vs grace-based relationship with God. Sometimes even though we know better, we can slip back into law-based thinking. That’s probably because all our lives we have been hearing about what we need to do in order for God to be pleased with us. I am sure that many of you too have received a steady diet of that kind of teaching as well.

So let’s focus on the Good News again! We are no longer under law. We are under grace! God does not operate with us the way he did with the Israelites (obedience=God will bless you and help you, disobedience=God will turn his back on you/make you pay). The purpose of God’s commands/law is only to show us that we cannot do it! This leads us to His solution: believing that Jesus paid the penalty for our sin. Then we begin our new life of walking in the Spirit, looking to Him to guide us daily on what to do or not do in the situations we face. The Bible is not meant to be our “post-salvation” rule book or guide for securing God’s blessing or favor. Yes, it does have a lot of helpful information about what walking in the Spirit looked like in the context of the things that the early church faced. And it has a lot of great truth for us to stand on as we live out our Christianity in the situations we each face today.

So here are my thoughts about the passage Sherpa referred to. The context of the passage looks like it’s about suing over being cheated financially. Whatever it was, in verse 3 Paul calls it a “little thing”. So I am thinking he is talking about not taking petty problems between believers to a secular court. True, he does say in verse 7 that it’s best to just let the whole thing go, but if you can’t let it go, you should not just let it brew either. Instead he says that the disagreement should be decided by other Christians.

That is how Paul suggested dealing with petty problems. But sexual abuse is not a petty thing. In the chapter just before this Paul is talking about how important it is for the Corinthian Christian’s to judge one of their own who was sinning sexually and ex-communicate him. Surely sexual abuse of children would also fall into the category of things that Christians should take action about! And even more so because non-believers even recognize sexual abuse of children as a terrible, reprehensible sin! This is not the type of thing to just “let go”.

It looks to me like abused MKs have made an attempt to bring the problem before other Christians (NTM leaders) for their judgment. It also looks to me like NTM never took this seriously until the Fanda Eagles went public with the problem. And even then, they have only taken action on the recommendations of an outside party (GRACE) versus taking action on their own toward all known pedophiles. In my opinion, if there is any finger pointing to be done, it points to NTM for not dealing with these people in the first place and for not dealing with these people decisively now. Again, in my opinion, if NTM was serious they would not wait for another outside investigation to tell them who the pedophiles are and then follow the script those investigators give them regarding further action; instead, they would take public action on their own now.

Exposing the problem, even through legal avenues, does not make MKs the problem. We do not know the heart motivation of the MKs. Some of them may not even claim to be believers. Some may be believers who are just wanting to be proactive themselves versus waiting for someone else to do an investigation and make recommendations which NTM may or may not follow through on. Some may be hoping for financial gain. But it would not be the worst thing in the world for NTM to suffer financially. Suffering can be a good thing; it can actually produce good character qualities in us. Who knows – financial suffering could be a catalyst for NTM leaders to have softer, more receptive hearts toward the Holy Spirit. Now, wouldn’t that be awesome!?

As far as whether suing helps an abused MK heal or not, I don’t know. It probably depends on the person, situation, etc. What I am more confident about is that by affirming adult MKs ability to hear how God is leading them individually (regarding suing or not) and their decision to follow through on their convictions, we have already helped them along in their journey toward healing.
Let’s give ourselves and each other some slack. As believers, we are all in a growing process. We are all on a journey, growing in our understanding of grace, growing in our understanding of our personal convictions, what is worth standing up for, what is not, how to do so with a balance of boldness and humility, growing in our ability to freely admit when we are wrong.

I have gone back and forth about replying again or not as I feel that I could describe how I see God till the ducks waddle home but the implication will keep being that I must not know the same God or that my view of God is shadowed in a desire to be politically correct. And that's ok, all are entitled to their own interpretation, and in the end, many things, even in scripture are left to interpretation - that's why there are people who spend their lives being Theologians. We are all accountable for what comes from our mouths (or in this case our fingers), making the statement that since the words are scripture then how we use it and say it must be ok, is so flawed. Even satan knows and uses scripture (and no I am not comparing anyone to satan). I think we can all agree that words are powerful, and that we are all painfully aware of how God's words can be used to hurt.

ThaiMK you are right. There are many different things, very important things, being discussed in this thread.

The original point of the thread was to offer an option for anyone who felt God was leading them in that direction. Whatever anyone decides to do with the information is between them and God. If someone has found peace and feels that God has settled the issue for them, then great, but we need to be careful asserting that someone else who perhaps hasn't finished God's plan for them in all of this is doing things out of His will.

For me personally, in response to a comment that was made, I too sleep well at night. I do so in the knowledge that each day I did my best to be the person God wants me to be (I am very serious in my walk with Him). There will always be people who do not agree with my way of life (even other Christians who don't agree with choices I make) but I am not living for them, I am living for Jesus.

I think it's safe to say most everyone here understands abuse, and none need to compare to show that they understand more, or that their experiences give them better insight then another. All abuse is painful, and all abuse leaves scars.

My prayer is that those who are still working to find peace, will be able to, in whatever way God requires them to.

One person's explanation of the relevant context:

"Law courts and legal arbitration were a part of the way of life among the Greeks of Corinth. The Roman government had set up a system of legal courts. The courts were held in the agora, the city marketplace. Today you can go to the ruins of Corinth and stand in that same marketplace. To one side was a large stone seat. It was known as the Bema Seat, the seat of judgment. It was from here that the local governor would preside over each case, rendering his judgment after all sides of the question had been heard.

The Jewish way of doing things was somewhat different. The Jews believed that, since they were the chosen people of God, they ought not to take their disputes into pagan courts. They thought that to do so would be to imply that God’s law was inferior to pagan law. Thus among the Jews it was considered to be a form of blasphemy to take another Jew to court.

Roman law recognized this attitude of the Jews and so the Jewish synagogues were empowered to try any case and to pass any sentence upon a Jew as long as it did not carry a penalty of death.

With the rise of the church at Corinth, it was not long before legal disputes arose between the new converts.

Perhaps Brother Marcus is in the market for a new camel. He goes down to Alexander’s Used Camel Dealership in downtown Corinth. He picks up a camel but does not purchase the warrantee. As soon as he gets the camel home, he notices that it is cross-eyed. Nobody wants a cross-eyed camel, so he immediately returns to the dealership and demands to speak to the manager. Lo and behold, the manager is none other than Deacon Alexander from church. Brother Marcus explains his predicament to Deacon Alexander who listens and then says, "I’m so sorry that this had to happen to you and I wish that you had taken our low-cost camel warranty, but there is nothing that I can do for you."

At this point, Brother Marcus decides that he has one of three options. First, he can beat Deacon Alexander with a big stick. This might be fun, but it is obviously not the spiritual thing to do. Besides that, Deacon Alexander might have an even bigger stick.

Secondly, he can take his case to the Jewish synagogue and have it tried there. However neither he nor Deacon Alexander are Jewish.

So the only alternative is for him to take Deacon Alexander to the civil court of the city. In this way, it will be a Gentile judge who is bringing judgment upon two Gentiles.

This situation was evidently becoming more commonplace in Corinth. The law courts were filling up with Christians who were filing suit against other Christians. Paul moves to direct his attention to this problem."

LOL

I have a few questions. Ornery probably knows the answers. Please explain the difference between civil judgements and criminal judgements. The only judgements I have ever heard of coming out of civil courts are financial judgements and I don't think there is a lot of money sitting around New Tribes while the Catholic Church is one of the richest organizations around. Filing a civil lawsuit against an organization would have to also list specific individuals and include them in the lawsuit as abusers. Would the abusers really be listed on the sexual criminals list? I think that is a criminal matter and would have to go through the criminal court (correct me if I am wrong). If you decide to go this route, are you prepared for the depositions from lawyers on both sides? Talking to Grace was probably a walk in the park compared to what depositions with lawyers in this case would be like. If you decide to go this route you need to be prepared mentally and emotionally, because it won't be pretty.

While I want to see justice done, I am not sure it will be before we all stand before a Holy God and are judged. I would like to see the whole structure of NTM changed. I would like to see accountability. I would like to see those who helped cover it up dismissed and supporting churches notified and I would like to see the perpetrators dismissed and all supporting churches notified as well as legal authorities wherever they may be living now. I would like to see criminal charges filed for the perps and those who covered for them allowing them to continue abusing children. However, to go to court there is a burden of proof standard that will be difficult to meet as many of the crimes are 40 years old, witnesses are hard to come by because most perps make sure there are no other witnesses when they commit the crime. There is no criminal or civil court that is going to take on the spiritual abuse that made so much of this possible. There are many long years of investigation and litigatation (did I spell that right?) ahead. I think each of us needs to think carefully and evaluate what our goals are--do we want to change NTM for the better, protect children, do we want financial settlements, if financial, how much is enough? How do you put a price on abuse? Do we want individual recognition of what was done and apologies from those involved? There are so many questions and we all probably have different answers. Will the goals of the lawyers be the same as yours? etc.

Just some things to think about......

Ornery will be able to answer more in depth regarding differences. In layman's terms, a person tried in a criminal court can be sent to prison and/or fined. In a civil case, monetary punitive damages are the only outcome - no jail.

Regarding money laying around at NTM, considering that it is a business, you can reasonably assume they have liability insurance.