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 Post subject: Re: Name that Pedophile
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:35 pm 
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Been thinking. How do we view some of the people from our past? Obviously some are just plain "evil", but are others perhaps are more "sick" than "evil".
Does it have to do with intent? And does some act of confession when one is caught suggest more of a degree of "illness" and a denial constitute a more "evil" intent.
And those that participated in shuffling paedophiles around, covering up their tracks, where do they sit on the scale. I don't think the "illness" excuse can be used, because there was no mental health issue at all, which only leaves the diagnosis that it was "evil" that they participated in or that they were actually "evil" themselves.

Which brings us to the big question, how did so many "evil" people end up in an organisation that went into all the world to spread the Good Word and defeat evil?

I'm still pondering it all.


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 Post subject: Re: Name that Pedophile
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:07 pm 
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Bemused, That is a question that rightfully deserves an answer. How? It certainly was not of the Lord, that is for sure. This pattern makes you wonder if it was a ring, but surely not. Full stop.


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 Post subject: Re: Name that Pedophile
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:57 pm 
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Lets go back to the swapping shoes routine and examine the question "was this a ring of paedophiles".

First of all lets try on NTM and their supporters shoes:
There is no paedophile ring, there never was and there never will be. Yes there were one or two bad people, but they were dealt with (sort of) and we've fixed our policy.

Second lets try on say Joe/Jane average Fanda Eagle participants shoes:
There was an awful lot of abuse going on, it was committed in many countries across many decades and it was covered up. Hardly anyone has paid for their crime, what we want is justice, whether it was a ring or not is irrelevant, but probably interesting.

Thirdly lets see this from a law enforcers viewpoint: There is a lot of irrelevant religous mumbo jumbo being thrown about, given previous experience with other organisations this could be a smokescreen. Now look at how many people are involved, who those people are and the lack of accountability. Also take into consideration how those people are connected and bingo it starts to look very suspicious.

Now pairs of shoes numbered one and two are irrelevant in the long run. We can argue till the cows come home between ourselves. But the smart money will be on number threes pair of shoes, that's who will get to the bottom of this, then their will be accountability.


So where does IHART fit into this. Well paid for by group one, to investigate claims of group two, hopefully in a manner that is group threes. I hope they look into this too and look very thoroughly.


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 Post subject: Re: Name that Pedophile
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:08 am 
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Bemused, The perspective you have put this into makes me shudder. Full stop.


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 Post subject: Re: Name that Pedophile
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:25 pm 
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Bemused wrote:
Lets go back to the swapping shoes routine and examine the question "was this a ring of paedophiles".

First of all lets try on NTM and their supporters shoes:
There is no paedophile ring, there never was and there never will be. Yes there were one or two bad people, but they were dealt with (sort of) and we've fixed our policy.

Second lets try on say Joe/Jane average Fanda Eagle participants shoes:
There was an awful lot of abuse going on, it was committed in many countries across many decades and it was covered up. Hardly anyone has paid for their crime, what we want is justice, whether it was a ring or not is irrelevant, but probably interesting.

Thirdly lets see this from a law enforcers viewpoint: There is a lot of irrelevant religous mumbo jumbo being thrown about, given previous experience with other organisations this could be a smokescreen. Now look at how many people are involved, who those people are and the lack of accountability. Also take into consideration how those people are connected and bingo it starts to look very suspicious.

Now pairs of shoes numbered one and two are irrelevant in the long run. We can argue till the cows come home between ourselves. But the smart money will be on number threes pair of shoes, that's who will get to the bottom of this, then their will be accountability.


So where does IHART fit into this. Well paid for by group one, to investigate claims of group two, hopefully in a manner that is group threes. I hope they look into this too and look very thoroughly.


When you remove the religious perspective from this situation it does indeed change the picture in drastic ways.

I have found that within Christian circles, people are extremely hesitant to consider any negative information about a mission organization with a long history and many impressive achievements.

Outside of Christian circles the attitude is quite different.

Something to think about.


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 Post subject: Re: Name that Pedophile
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:02 am 
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Raz, Certainly is something to think about. When my children were little I would often told them to please stop and just think about it. Full stop.


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 Post subject: Re: Name that Pedophile
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:25 pm 
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Yee ha. This is what I've been saying all along. We need to stop and think! Take off the religous blinkers and look at what this is really all about. It's call criminal offending, nothing less than that. And not just petty theft, criminal offending that under normal circumstance woud have incurred long jail terms. So why didn't it?

Because it got covered up and justice perverted by religous nonsense that ended up with the offenders being helped, shuffled round, covered up, hidden and forgiven. While the victims become the annoying, unforgiveing, bitter spirited ones by asking for it to be sorted out properly. It's all back to front.

And this is why we need to take off the religous blinkers and see this for what it is, one unholy mess! Stop, think clearly, then act, is what Bemused says.


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 Post subject: Re: Name that Pedophile
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:31 pm 
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Bemused, Thank you for reiterating your charge to us about all this mess. I am going to start using those 3 suggestions to my beautiful grandchildren. Wise advise indeed. Stop, think clearly, then act. I have them tomorrow and I am sure there will be a time when I will have to use this advice. Full stop.


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 Post subject: Re: Name that Pedophile
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:21 pm 
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One question that has haunted me is were the paedlophiles bad before they entered NTM, ABWE e.t.c. or did they evolve that way. I was fortunate enough to speak to a police officer who deals with child abuse about this and his expert opinion is that there is usually a tendency to sexual abuse, but ending up in an environment that is laden with children, increases the speed down the slippery slope. Some of course deliberately seek out an environment where they will probably be above suspicion and can indulge their criminal behaviour with less chance of detection. Others join religous organisations to curb their predatory instints, only to find they end up in more temptation than they ever anticipated.
However in saying that, if a person is tempted by little girls and little boys, there is something wrong in the first place, it is not normal, or natural.


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 Post subject: Re: Name that Pedophile
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:00 pm 
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Quote:
However in saying that, if a person is tempted by little girls and little boys, there is something wrong in the first place, it is not normal, or natural.




Herein lies part of the problem of legalism. This statement is something that goes beyond just pedophilia. I am familiar with NTM training and other Bible schools as well. Too often rules are laid down and the students are able to follow them but deep within them they have never dealt with the problem. But the leaders see compliance and consider the conduct spirituality but the students true selves are only suppressed. I believe that training centers should have few rules accept those necessary (it is fair to say no discharging of firearms on school property) and those led by the Spirit of God will conduct themselves appropriately. The rest will show themselves for what they are and should be easier to weed out of ministry positions. I think it was Howard Hendriks that once said to a group of men; "if you can't keep it zipped up, do the Lord a favor and don't go into the ministry."


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