MK forum

GRACE has proven itself to be a fair and (most importantly) confidential group. Your identity, your situation, your story will be safe with them. I am very glad they are available for you.

I also commend MK Safety Net (http://www.mksafetynet.net/) as a group who can identify with victims of abuse and offer godly, practical advice and direction.

Above all, it is heartening to know that victims are finding their voices, facing the past and moving forward. It is so helpful to know that you are not alone. And, you are NOT alone!

"Publius, I agree with most of what you said in your post, but I have a few concerns about the sections I quoted above. Where does the Bible say we are to ask for forgiveness from victims - other than God in the Disciple's Prayer? I can't think of anywhere. One relevant passage I can think of is Matt. 5:23-24. This talks of the offender going and being reconciled to their victim, but it doesn't mention forgiveness."

Benjamin:

I would posit that reconciliation is nearly impossible in the above passage without forgiveness being asked for and given. As I stated in my post, forgiveness is a process and is not automatic. I fully agree with you that the attitude of the heart is most accurately reflected in the manner of life one leads post-offense. Thus, one who has offended best evidences a heart-change of repentance by actively living it out.

Understand, that yes, there are those who would demand forgiveness because, as you put it, they've "done their part", now the victim "must" do theirs. However, this understanding is nothing more than adding insult to injury, and likely is yet another form of spiritual abuse, just different "window dressing".

In my earlier post I sought to distinguish between the actions of one who merely says they are "sorry", without acknowledging that what they did was sinful and wrong (most likely only to avoid further unpleasant inquiries or potential lawsuits) from those of a contrite, broken heart who acknowledges their sin, asks for forgiveness and genuinely leads a life evidencing a change in mindset lived out through their actions. This latter approach would also acknowledge and accept any resultant consequences flowing from committed sin (again, see David's example in response to his infant son's death) and is but one hallmark of a truly broken, repentant, and contrite heart. I would also draw your attention to many of the O.T. laws regarding restitution and recompense as underscoring the need for not only acknowledgment of the misdeed, but also the accountability of making amends. It is hard to imagine one restoring an item to the victim without there being words of acknowledging why the restoration was needed in the first place.

You mentioned the Lord's Prayer, or, more accurately, a model prayer to be used by His followers. I would submit that in it, one can see the thought that our relationships, viewed through the prism of forgiveness, are both vertical and horizontal. There are excellent organizations such as The PeaceMakers, that articulate this thought better than I can at nearly 1 AM in the morning. Trust me when I say I am not making an idol out of the concept of forgiveness. I believe the offender who fully realizes his/her sin and truly desires such forgiveness will also have the grace to understand the victim may not be able to give forgiveness right away. Forgiveness is not easily bestowed when one is faced with a wound that comes from a slight offense, how much more the difficulty when forgiveness is sought for a wound that shatters one's psyche?!

I do believe that brothers and sisters in Christ ought to seek the forgiveness of each other when sin has been committed. I believe that upon true recognition of that fact, restoration within the Body ought to occur. Such restoration does NOT mean, as was the case with the way NTM dealt with many of these situations , simply relocating offenders into another position of authority. Restoration, in my opinion, means that the offender acknowledges their sin before God, seeks out the one against whom the sin was committed, asks forgiveness for the sinful and wrongful action they did, and along with that acknowledgment, accept any consequence (criminal and/or civil) meted out in response to their sinful actions. As the result of such transparency and accountability, the restorative process can begin as both the one sinned against and the sinner receive justice. Furthermore, the victim can begin to heal, knowing their plight was heard and justice meted out.

For many, their plight may have been heard, but summarily dismissed and justice never meted out. The restorative process could never begin for some because situations calling for forgiveness were circumvented under the guise of "being sorry" or, in some instances, never addressed at all. True healing was thwarted for many and, even now, many deal with the pain of it all some 25 years later because

"For many, their plight may have been heard, but summarily dismissed and justice never meted out. The restorative process could never begin for some because situations calling for forgiveness were circumvented under the guise of "being sorry" or, in some instances, never addressed at all. True healing was thwarted for many and, even now, many deal with the pain of it all some 25 years later because . . . ."

The above was not meant to be included in my response to Benjamin. At this point in my earlier post I was beginning to ramble and, I think, was veering off-topic. In any event, it illustrates the hazards of posting in the wee hours of the morn!

I hope, though, that I clarified my thought for you, Benjamin. Thanks for responding and for being here.

I am thinking that sometimes when people are silent about abuse, it is because they have vague or blocked memories of their abuse. It is possible for some one to have been traumatized and because of that trauma they block it out. That's is know to happen especially in young children and even to people in their adulthood. Everyone is different in that regard. I myself think that being so shy and quiet I was neglected a lot of the time. It's hard not to be when at one time you were in dorm of 20 or more kids. I was mistreated emotionally, but to my knowledge not physically or sexually and that's where I would like to say that I think a lot of my memories have been blocked. I was just recently reminded that a dorm parent apologized to me when I was in grade school for what they had done but my parents and I didn't know what for. I think for me it might be better to not dwell on what I don't remember and think of it as God's grace. My thoughts are a bit scattered right now so I'm sorry if this doesn't make sense.

I am not here to belittle anyone's experience of via or their dorm parents. Believe me I'm just as outraged as everyone else. I know Bucky Nageli was very harsh and he was extremely scary at times. He's always struggled with his temper. He came from a family who wasn't saved and if I remember correctly his dad was harsh. That is no excuse for his actions! I just wanted to say that I know him well and he's grown and changed so much since he was a dorm dad. He's gentle with a tender-heart and a great love for the Lord. And I know he feels badly for those he has wronged. People make mistakes even with their own children. We fail.That is why Jesus came to die for us. So we could be forgiven and reconciled to him. Again I'm not saying that it is any excuse to deal harsely or abuse someone. Everyone mush answer for what they do on this earth. I'm just trying to put it out there that people do change through God's grace. Please don't be mad. I really do see all sides here.