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 Post subject: Re: Refocusing on Aritao
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:35 pm 
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Thanks for being willing to deal with things and to live in reality, Raz!
Keep up your good work on behalf of the MKs.
I hear we're getting there.


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 Post subject: Re: Refocusing on Aritao
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:50 pm 
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Raz wrote:
Yesterday I received communication from another Aritao Mom. I believe she was "ministering" to me (for non-NTMers, this is code for rebuking, criticizing, chastening or belittling).

This is what she wanted to communicate to me:

Talking about Les Emory and what he did to our children, and the ways in which this affected them and continues to affect them "denies God's redemptive work, as well as still living in the past. Many people do need healing, but we can't offer it unless it has already begun in our own lives by forgiving."

I believe her implication is that by what I am doing and saying/writing in my activism on the MK abuse issue, I am living in the past, thereby denying God's redemptive work. And that I have not forgiven, and therefore I can't help anyone else to heal.

In case anyone else has had those same thoughts, I would like to address these concerns.

1. I do not believe that speaking about child abusers and child abuse denies God's redemptive work. On the contrary, I am praying that my efforts actually illustrate the miraculous power of God's redemptive work. No one would accuse the Apostle Paul of denying God's redemptive work. And yet he wrote often about the wiles of the Evil One, the power of sin, the dangers of a seared conscience, and he even called out by name Christians who refused to respond to the still small voice of the Holy Spirit and allowed their lives to be taken over by the lusts of their flesh.

2. Speaking out about the past is not the same as living in the past. A wise person has said that we cannot move forward until we go back and grapple with pain from our past. Locking oneself in a closet of denial is the ultimate way to stay in the past, in my opinion. Except the person is not aware that while others around them are moving forward, they are stuck emotionally, and bound up by secrets they refuse to acknowledge or explore.

3. Forgiving is not the same as forgetting. I believe it is possible to forgive and yet still hold a person accountable for wicked things they have done and ways in which they have hurt others (and myself). I feel that I forgave Les Emory many years ago. But that does not mean that I don't still think he is a very dangerous pedophile who should be locked up for the rest of his life in order to protect innocent children in his vicinity.

One of the main reasons I have continued to participate heavily in this cause is precisely my longing to see healing take place, on every level. The steps that lead to healing can some times be terribly painful. A few months ago my husband developed a post-operative infection in his knee. The only way to save his life was to take him back to the operating room for a very rigorous scrubbing, washing and debridement of his knee, trying to get as much of the infection out as possible, and then putting him on a 6-week course of IV antibiotic that was so strong it made him feel terrible. The cure for this infection was not pleasant at all, and seemed to go on forever. Several months later he is still limping on an aching knee. But the alternative would have been far worse, and he probably would have died, without these painful interventions.

So yes, I AM motivated by the desire to see healing take place in the lives of hurting MKs and all who love them. But I do not believe that can happen effectively WITHOUT talking about child molesters such as Les Emory, and without acknowledging the horrific things he did to our children. Yes, those things happened long ago. But they left their mark permanently. I DO believe in the redemptive work of God, through Christ and His sacrifice. If I didn't, I would have no hope at all.

Will I be writing to this Aritao Mom and trying to explain myself? No. I am certain I could never convince her to think differently than she does now.

But maybe my thoughts will help someone else.


One can pretend one "forgives and forgets" all one likes, until there is a crisis and it all comes flooding back, which seems to happen for many victims of sexual abuse.
It's like in medicine. A wound has to be healed from the bottom up, if it heals over at the top before the wound is cleaned out and healed at the bottom, then one gets an abcess, which one day bursts or does further damage in the wound.
The path to healing is aided for many by seeing justice served and knowing that the offender has stopped their offending, either by being dealt with or dealing with their offending themselves by seeking true repentance. In the case of child sex offenders, the deviousness of the crime makes the latter less likely.
When religous people tell me to "forgive and forget" are they not ignoring one of the sacrements of their faith? Does "Do this in rememberance of Me" not ring a bell? The table is gathered round and the faithful are commanded to remember not forget. Remember who put Who on the cross and why. Those that don't want to remember what Christ did, would be considered by good people of faith, as not wanting to remember the past in order to attain a better future. So for the same good people of faith to then say "forgive and forget" is hypocrictical slur on what Christ said or selecetive reasoning.

Going back to a non religous logical argument, unless one has suffered abuse at the level to many of us have, it is hard (but not impossible) to gain a full understanding of the dramatic life changing affects that such abuse often (but not always) incurs.
Alas it has fallen to us to go back into the past so that there is a future. The reason it has fallen to us, is because the people who should have sorted this mess out long ago didn't and the question we ask on our journey is "why"? With all the stories coming to the surface, is life still to comfortable to get involved, or is there more that is being hidden, the implications of which, if they are revealed, are to close for comfort?
If we don't speak out, the Les Emory's and Jim Givens of this world are free to continue ruining lives and there will be many more who follow in their footsteps.


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 Post subject: Re: Refocusing on Aritao
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:18 pm 
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Bemused, I really like the physical analogy of a spiritual problem. Of course there is some truth in what this reprimander said but she sure doesn't get the whole picture. The one we must keep in front of us is this was a crime. Sin is sin but some sin is also a crime. I wish this reprimander would read all of Raz's posts, she might get her eyes opened. I wonder how much correspondence she has addressed to the abusers. Full stop.


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 Post subject: Re: Refocusing on Aritao
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:31 am 
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@ Raz

Thank you so much for sharing and your activism. You are a voice where others may not be able to speak. As that NTM mother should already know (by the extensive training at NTM) taking the less traveled path is never easy.

This weekend I sat down and watched a documentary called Forgiving Dr. Mengele. It was very powerful and throughout my mind kept coming back to this forum and the trail of broken spirits that NTM continues to scatter about. Eva Mozes Kor was a twin at Auschwitz and subjected to Dr. Mengele's "experiments." She decided later in life to forgive and NOT forget. She became a pariah in the Auschwitz survivor community because of this. However, the forgiveness was for her so she could move forward and live. I think it was more of a letting go of her hate towards the Nazis. She continues her work speaking out against the Holocaust, fighting for justice, and talking of her style of forgiveness.

My words cannot scratch the surface of her powerful concept and struggles. You must see for yourself. It is streaming on Netflix.


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 Post subject: Re: Refocusing on Aritao
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:43 pm 
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Raz wrote:
Yesterday I received communication from another Aritao Mom. I believe she was "ministering" to me (for non-NTMers, this is code for rebuking, criticizing, chastening or belittling).

This is what she wanted to communicate to me:

Talking about Les Emory and what he did to our children, and the ways in which this affected them and continues to affect them "denies God's redemptive work, as well as still living in the past. Many people do need healing, but we can't offer it unless it has already begun in our own lives by forgiving."

I believe her implication is that by what I am doing and saying/writing in my activism on the MK abuse issue, I am living in the past, thereby denying God's redemptive work. And that I have not forgiven, and therefore I can't help anyone else to heal.

In case anyone else has had those same thoughts, I would like to address these concerns.

1. I do not believe that speaking about child abusers and child abuse denies God's redemptive work. On the contrary, I am praying that my efforts actually illustrate the miraculous power of God's redemptive work. No one would accuse the Apostle Paul of denying God's redemptive work. And yet he wrote often about the wiles of the Evil One, the power of sin, the dangers of a seared conscience, and he even called out by name Christians who refused to respond to the still small voice of the Holy Spirit and allowed their lives to be taken over by the lusts of their flesh.

2. Speaking out about the past is not the same as living in the past. A wise person has said that we cannot move forward until we go back and grapple with pain from our past. Locking oneself in a closet of denial is the ultimate way to stay in the past, in my opinion. Except the person is not aware that while others around them are moving forward, they are stuck emotionally, and bound up by secrets they refuse to acknowledge or explore.

3. Forgiving is not the same as forgetting. I believe it is possible to forgive and yet still hold a person accountable for wicked things they have done and ways in which they have hurt others (and myself). I feel that I forgave Les Emory many years ago. But that does not mean that I don't still think he is a very dangerous pedophile who should be locked up for the rest of his life in order to protect innocent children in his vicinity.

One of the main reasons I have continued to participate heavily in this cause is precisely my longing to see healing take place, on every level. The steps that lead to healing can some times be terribly painful. A few months ago my husband developed a post-operative infection in his knee. The only way to save his life was to take him back to the operating room for a very rigorous scrubbing, washing and debridement of his knee, trying to get as much of the infection out as possible, and then putting him on a 6-week course of IV antibiotic that was so strong it made him feel terrible. The cure for this infection was not pleasant at all, and seemed to go on forever. Several months later he is still limping on an aching knee. But the alternative would have been far worse, and he probably would have died, without these painful interventions.

So yes, I AM motivated by the desire to see healing take place in the lives of hurting MKs and all who love them. But I do not believe that can happen effectively WITHOUT talking about child molesters such as Les Emory, and without acknowledging the horrific things he did to our children. Yes, those things happened long ago. But they left their mark permanently. I DO believe in the redemptive work of God, through Christ and His sacrifice. If I didn't, I would have no hope at all.

Will I be writing to this Aritao Mom and trying to explain myself? No. I am certain I could never convince her to think differently than she does now.

But maybe my thoughts will help someone else.


I continue to read different threads here on FE and came across this one, Raz. Some really great encouragement for me, here, thanks for getting this out there! I still have voices in my head that accuse me of merely wanting to live in the past and sometimes they get loud. But I have found so much hope and healing in going back and processing my experiences. I have also had the incredible joy of reaching out to others (both MKs and non-MKs) who did not know they weren't the only ones. Thanks for all of the effort you have made to bring this issue to the attention of many so as not to repeat the same mistakes.


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 Post subject: Re: Refocusing on Aritao
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:56 pm 
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Thanks, AnotherMK!

That was written last September.

I am still hanging in there/here!


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 Post subject: Re: Refocusing on Aritao
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:10 pm 
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Raz wrote:
Thanks, AnotherMK!

That was written last September.

I am still hanging in there/here!


Yes, but still relevant today...and maybe more need to hear it or hear it again. :) Glad you are hanging in here.


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 Post subject: Re: Refocusing on Aritao
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:33 pm 
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Raz, :( that so many people still think this way, forgive and forget it. They don't realize to solve a problem you have to first identify the source of the problem. When we know the source we can plan how to deal with it.


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 Post subject: Re: Refocusing on Aritao
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:29 pm 
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Cliches like "forgive and forget" work fine, till suddenly one discovers that it is your child or yourself that has been abused, then the tune changes.

Of course for some of us there is nothing to forgive and forget, because unbelievably the fallacy is still being expounded that nothing ever happened.

Still getting my head round that one. But there is none so blind as they that refuse to see.


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 Post subject: Re: Refocusing on Aritao
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:20 am 
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When we were children we were told to forgive. It is an action that one does when someone hurts us or breaks our toys. Then after we forgive we are to play together like nothing happened. When abused we are told to act as though nothing happened. So forgiveness takes on a very negative emotion as a child. Emotions we learned as children never go away. So don't tell me to change my emotions. I can release the control the abuser has on me, I can release my expectations of an apology, I can even if I chose release the abuser from every paying me back for what he did. But I can not change that emotional response I have when told to forgive, it is there and I live with it and respond to it as I know I can. All the explanations of what forgiveness is and isn't are good and I think mostly they help those who have not been abused to understand the abused a little better. Understanding the emotions of the abused is learning another language and you really are not fluent until in some way you learn the emotions, often by experience.


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