MK forum

"God leads through leadership."

How many times did we hear that in our twenty five years with NTM!

A true story to illustrate how this works in practice: The Thailand Field Committee was treating me in a manner that I considered unfair. In a conversation with a fellow missionary, I shared my concerns. He was familiar with both sides of the issue, the grapevine being pretty effective on a small field like Thailand and he being close friends with some of the Field Committee members.

He commiserated with my plight, but he was torn: The Field Committee was in unanimous agreement on the other side of the issue. I was one person, they were five. How could five men all be walking with the Lord and still be wrong? Wouldn't it be more likely that I, only one person, was out of fellowship?

What are the chances that one person is not walking with the Lord? Pretty high at any moment in time, since we are all sinners, he reasoned. What are the chances that five men are all not walking with the Lord at the same time? One, maybe two, OK, that could happen. Five at once? The odds are astronomical. That is why God has ordained plurality of leadership, he reminded me.

He could see my point, mind you. But it was a five to one decision, five leaders to one me. Would agreeing with me mean that he was out of fellowship, too? he wondered. His final advice was to just do what they said and let the Lord take care of things. God is more concerned about this than we are, He has raised up these leaders and the best thing we can do is just obey.

Anything wrong with this picture?

I dont' see anything wrong with it what are you trying to say? You joined NTM they did not join you so if you dont' like what they say just quit.

You're job as a member is to obey not set yourself up as the judge of men God has put over you. If thier wrong obey anyway and God will judeg them you dont' need to. Do you really believe that all five men could be walking in the flesh at one time and only your in fellowship? And if their walking in the light wont' God keep them from making a mistake if not what is the point in being in fellowship? And dont' you believe the Lord is more interested in you're problems than you are of course he is.

So my answer is that nothing is wrong with this picture and I dont' think anyone is NTM would think there is only people who have issues with them. Leaders are supposed to lead and if your not a leader you are supposed to folow and submit end of story.

Red Barren: I can barely believe your reply. Are you being serious, or are you saying this with your tongue in cheek?

Is not the continuing of the abuse at Fanda exactly because of the attitude you have shared? "Just quitting" does not stop continuing abuse or solve the issue.

Are you saying that there is never latitude to question leadership? That they are never wrong?

What about the prophets of old? One person speaking against the spiritual and/or political leadership of a whole nation!

What about implementing Matthew 18? Just submitting is not healthy, and it does not resolve the conflict.

I am preparing for a sermon series at the moment on "Dealing with Conflict" and i'm coming to realise the dangers and difficulties of resolving conflicts where there is a power imbalance.

Red Barren, Are you with NTM?
I don't believe you could be serious. Have you read over this sight? Have you read the report? If you have, haven't you seen how WRONG the Fanda leaders got it? THEY GOT IT WRONG! Even the current NTM leaders are admitting that! If they got it wrong couldn't leaders in another situation have got it wrong? God loves Justice! And God used People to get his work done. If God did everything on his own and didn't use people we wouldn't need missionaries . God uses people to get the word out. God uses people to minister. God uses people to show others the love of God. God used people to bring justice. I think if you believe that God 'needs' people ( Christs body) to get the gospel out, he also 'needs' people to judge!

I think these leadership power-plays ignore some of the obvious - such as verses talking about 'hierarchy' Only Christ is head of the church. There are no mini-heads. All beneath the head are body parts each equally necessary. Does the ear say to the foot, I don't need you?

Ephesians 4:11And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head Christ 16from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

So many other verses teach the same principles.

The verse "obey' your leaders" is a big one quoted by the power-players. The problem is that 'they' neglect to notice what the word 'obey' means in that context. It carries the idea of follow your leaders as they follow Christ. In other words, you only 'obey' IF they are following Christ.

I just remembered the first time I rode a horse. I was about 7 years old. It was one of those deals where the horses are all trained to follow the horse in front of it. The leader put my horse second to his. My horse didn't cooperate with following the leader and took me under branches and such. Every horse behind did the same. All those horses not on the correct path because the first leader behind the real leader wasn't following the real leader.

Another response to 'anything wrong with this picture'

I could say, I don't know. The argument is logical. What I do know is that following that logic put me in a position where I was spiritually abused. It has been ten years since we left the church where it happened most severely. I have drawn back and put up walls against the church (still semi-permeable at least) For me, it was only spiritual abuse. What must it be like when physical and sexual is added on top of that? For those kids, the leaders were as God to them. It is as if God Himself has raped and violated them.

Is it any wonder then, that now so many enter a church building with great difficulty? Some never succeed. I know someone who, last time she tried, threw up in the parking lot. She never went in. She has major reservations that God even exists. From a multi-generational missionary family. I have to wonder how her life would be different if the abuse had not happened.

Obtaining a measure of justice will go a long way toward healing the spiritual wounds of these 'kids.'

"Whoever offends one of these little ones....." Even if these offenders escape earthly justice, they won't escape God's. Considering that, it is an act of mercy to bring the offenders to account. Perhaps they will repent and cry to God for mercy. Perhaps they will harden their hearts more.

I admit that I recognize some Jonah in myself. I hope for the hardening because I would rather see God 'zap' them. Git em good, God, because what they did was really, really bad.

We all need His forgiveness.

MK Sheri, that is EXACTLY what I was trying to say! Thanks for finding the verse! I could delete my comment now that you have worded it better

We are to submit to God always and to the human spiritual authority to which we willingly chose to submit (i.e. You can chose to submit yourself to mission leadership). However, this should NEVER mean blind obedience to man. Ever. Gene, I understand your friends predicament, and of course, not knowing the specific situation, it's hard to make a judgment call whether your friend was right or wrong. Ultimately, you have to go with what the Lord leads you to do. You ask the Lord, "Am I deceived, Lord? Show me YOUR heart. Is there ANY sin in my life that could cloud what you are telling me to do?" Be in the Word consistently and constantly! And then, you trust the Lord that He is big enough and powerful enough to tell you the proper answer. And when the Holy Spirit bears witness, you go against the world if you have too!

Moreover, as Paul encouraged Timothy: correct with gentleness. Our humble, calm, and loving perseverance in standing on the truth of God's Word in the face of deceived leaders will always be God honoring and glorifying. Though it may not change the hearts of man. When it's all said and done, and no one is budging, you must ask the Lord, "Would it be sin for me to submit to my leaders in this?" If it's only a matter of method in accomplishing something, then it could be sin to buck the system. However, if that method would cause you to sin against family and God, then hang on to the rock of Jesus, because it's going to get stormy! You stand with Jesus, and pray that your leaders repent.

Finally, as one friend put it, stand on the truth, and if they want to enact discipline in firing you, then that's their sin. But be careful in your words and actions! Be sure that their grounds for firing you are not over the manner in which you disagree, but only on that in which you disagree.

I hope you can sense my love for the Lord and NTM because I sure dont' sense yours just bitterness. I have read my Bible many times over even more than I have read this blog and what do you say about Miriam Moses sister who spoke against him or David would not touch the Lords' annoinnted and felt bad when he cut the hem of his garment? My paster supports NTM and you can find other testimonys on the NTM web site dont' you turst those men of God? I have many friends in NTM and I know they love the Lord and submit to leadership there just too scarred to say anything on this blog or they will get called a fool.

No one says that everything that happened was good and a lot of it was not and it makes people mad me too. But we have no busines doing our dirty dishes in pubic for the whole world to gloat over and mock us. NTM has said they sinned so isnt' that enough arent' they back in fellowship?