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For Red Baron - food for thought

King David was a godly man
King David slept with another man's wife

King David was a godly man
King David murdered Uriah

King David was a godly man
He didn't repent until confronted for his sins by the prophet Nathan.

I Samuel 13:14; Acts 13:22 God says that David is, "a man after My own heart" It's true. King David was a godly man.

So then,
Is it godly to sleep with another man's wife?
Is it godly to murder?

Can a godly person sin?
Can a godly person do really awful sin?
David did.

Does a godly person always rapidly confess and repent of their sin?
David didn't.

To follow the heart of God is godliness.
Only God doesn't sin.

1 John 1:8
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
BUT - 1 John 1:9
"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
How cool is this!!
Then right away, right after that wonderful news...
1 John 1:10
"If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."
And then, look at I John 5:18
"We know that whoever is born of God does not sin"

If you will, I encourage you to chew through 1 John.
What is God saying?

True Submission: "But remember, NTM is NOT and I will repeat for emphasis NOT the church. And that is a very important distinction that we MUST remember. NTM is a para-church organization, and at no point claims to be the church, and therefore, most certainly, does not have the authority of the church."

Actually, I used to believe this same thing. While it is true that NTM is not the church it is in fact registered as a church, and the leaders in it are the elders of the church. What I never knew before was that the Tuesday Night meetings they held were held to fulfil IRS requirements of a church. That is why they met (and, I imagine, continue to meet) even when "outsiders" did not attend.

I think this state of affairs came about in the "early days" when NTM had a handful of members, not thousands. They probably considered themselves to be a true, New Testament Church. Once registered that way, they never changed it, though I have no idea what benefits they receive by being a "church" that they would not receive as a more typical non-profit charitable organization.

Does it matter? Well, NTM is dealing with a number of pressing issues these days, and this one may not rate very high on anyone's list. After all, it's not like they are hurting anyone with this. However, God seems to value the church a little more than that - the church is the Bride of Christ, Jesus loved the church and gave himself for it. If we believe that, we may want to be cautious in how we usurp its name. And, as a simple matter of honesty, NTM is not a church in any sense that their doctrinal position would support. Honesty, even simple honesty, ought to count for something.

My original post said, in part:"He commiserated with my plight, but he was torn: The Field Committee was in unanimous agreement on the other side of the issue. I was one person, they were five. How could five men all be walking with the Lord and still be wrong? Wouldn't it be more likely that I, only one person, was out of fellowship?

"What are the chances that one person is not walking with the Lord? Pretty high at any moment in time, since we are all sinners, he reasoned. What are the chances that five men are all not walking with the Lord at the same time? One, maybe two, OK, that could happen. Five at once? The odds are astronomical. That is why God has ordained plurality of leadership, he reminded me."

Note his implicit assumption that walking with the Lord precludes making mistakes. Is this biblical? How would it apply to other arenas of life, say sports? Can a player expect to perform flawlessly on the court or field if he or she is walking with the Lord? In medicine, would it mean that a doctor's diagnosis was always correct when he was in fellowship, and mistakes are evidence that he is carnal? Appliance repairmen? Plumbers? Business people? Let's not even think about the implications for lawyers. . .

I would prefer, on balance, that my doctor, plumber or best friend be walking with the Lord. But, not because I think it would make them perfect. The leap of logic from "God is perfect" to "if I'm walking with God I can't make a mistake" is not only wrong, it is dangerous. In fact, it is a fallacy that has ruined untold lives.

To paraphrase an earlier poster on this thread, "What is the use of being in fellowship if you can still make mistakes?" Please understand that I am not trying to make a case for making mistakes. But, avoidance of mistakes is certainly a poor reason for walking with the Lord. Here are some better ones: Love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, temperance.

I think Gene's post about "walking with God" brings out the same point that I was making in my post about David being a man of God. As I understand it, "a man after God's own heart" is someone whose face is pointed that direction. It is the same as "walking with the Lord" in terms of the person's heart towards God. Analogies are always poor, but consider this one. When you push those weeble toys they bobble over. But the weight is set so that they will return to upright. As believers, God has made us a new creation, given us a heart of flesh to replace our heart of stone. We are brought from death to life. That doesn't mean we are perfect and will never get knocked over and out of place. It does mean that the "magnetic pull" is always back to God. that is..., for a TRUE believer.

There is a reason we are to judge a person by their fruits. There is a reason the Bereans were praised for not just taking Paul at face value.
A wolf is able to disguise very well as a sheep. The tares look like the wheat. Satan masquerades as an angel of light. WE can't know another man's heart with certainty. For that matter, we can't even know our heart. (There are other passages, but it was 1 Corinthians 4:4 where I saw this most clearly stated) That "godly" man/woman "walking with the Lord" that you see may not even be a true believer.

At the other end of the spectrum is the true believer who faithfully follows Christ, disciplining self in prayer, meditation, devotion, daily repentance*, and so on. (*What is there to repent of if we are never wrong?) He/she may have years of bible training, years of faithful ministry. Then, even then, he/she can fall flat on his/her face as sin, again, wraps its tentacles around his/her legs. The truth is that none of us makes it through a day without sinning. None of us has an inside line to the mind of God. All of us live in bodies that will die and rot.

I don't know how we came to the mindset that some people are "more spiritual" than others and that makes them the one to follow. I say "we" because it is the mind I used to have (and still slip into many times.) God is renewing my mind out of that error.

Gene, There was validity to your friend being troubled as he considered your opinion as only one person vs. the 5 others. It is good to have multiple 'counselors.' (Proverbs 11:14) However, having multiple counselors doesn't guarantee truth. As someone already mentioned, consider the Old Testament prophets. Many times they were going opposite to everyone else. They didn't have any "I am a prophet speaking the true words of God" sign flashing over their head. In 'competition' were false prophets saying opposite words. There was no sign saying "I am a false prophet and not speaking for God." People had to discern.

We want to have someone to follow that always knows and makes the right decisions. We do. It is Jehovah Christ, Who leads us by His Spirit. in Hebrews 12:2 "...Looking to Jesus..."

Jesus says "Follow ME."

I was reading about Ananius and Sapphira once and something stood out to me. Ananius sold the land. Ananius decided to keep back a part of it. Ananius is the one who took it to the apostles and lied by saying it was all of the money. All Sapphira did when she came in later was say what her husband wanted her to say. And a wife is to follow her husband, right? He is the leader, right? Instead, God struck her dead. God held her accountable, individually, to follow Him, even against her husband's leadership.

God doesn't call us to the mission field. God doesn't call us to be pastors, pastor's wives or even Sunday school teachers. God only has one call, and that is "Follow Me." A lot of evil has happened from not understanding this.

The thing about the five vs one is, if the five have the wrong idea about the responsibility of leadership, it is possible that they are wrong, and the one, right. It depends on whether the five are following God, or some mistaken/unbiblical idea of leadership. There is safety in numbers, but only when all concerned are looking to God for His leading.

I appreciate this discussion. I'm still trying to clarify things and I greatly appreciate the thoughtful disucssion based on God's Word.

Sheri--awesome illustration with A & S. Cool how Saphira wasn't told her husband was dead. Goes to prove that the expectation was for her to own up even if she was still bound to her husband. I only saw that recently myself. What a revelation!

Thanks to all who have posted on this thread. You have refreshed my soul and I thank you for your insights. The following is more of a recap, since all of these points have been made already.

While I agree with the wisdom, indeed, the necessity of seeking counsel, that is not exactly the same thing as seeking affirmation or re-enforcement. II Chronicles 18.1-27 is a clear example of the differences. Many times, committees in NTM do not look outside of their own ranks for advice, and those within their ranks who regularly find themselves taking a different view of things are isolated or removed. That there is a lot of pressure to conform to the general feeling of the majority, or even of the more forceful members of the committee, is too obvious to require proof.

But, seeking counsel is not the main point that I would like to highlight. As MK sheri's posts show, there is something seriously wrong with a view of "walking with the Lord" that would make us believe our decisions are infallible. At the risk of belaboring the point, "being in fellowship," "waking in the light," "being filled with the Spirit" and similar concepts do NOT mean that, in such a state, we cannot make mistakes. If it did, then wouldn't it be enough to guarantee that we wouldn't sin and get out of fellowship? Wouldn't it mean that any interpretation of Scripture we had decided upon while "filled with the Spirit" was true, no longer subject to review or question? (See MK sheri's remarks, above, about the noble Bereans! They were checking up on Paul. . . yet, he was writing scripture, they weren't.) Wouldn't it mean that any decisions a committee of men made while "in fellowship" were above reproach and beyond reconsideration? This is a defective view of our temporal, practical walk with the Lord, yet it is unconsciously held by many in NTM - my friend and former colleague is not alone in his convictions.

The fact is, we are always liable to make errors in judgment,or even sin, whether or not we have just had our quiet time and/ or confessed our sins and shortcomings or not. I do not make light of quiet time, reading the Bible or confessing our sins; I merely insist that these be given their scriptural significance, not freighted with magical powers.

This is a very tangible example of a place where theology intersects with real life, and where defective theology has devastating effects far beyond a written doctrinal statement.

Gene--if you are summarizing to close out this thread, sorry if I'm messing that up.

I agree with your comments about walking with the Lord. For myself, I think my perception of not making mistakes goes back to NTBI.

In one class in particular it seemed like we were evaluating who was walking with the Lord and when, in the Bible. If they made a mistake, they weren't, if they didn't make a mistake, they were. I don't know if this was truly intended by the teacher, or was just because of my own newness to the concept of walking with the Lord. It was a very, very long time ago.

FrmrNTer: I was just summing up my own position, not trying to close this thread! This is a vital topic, and I hope it gets more responses.

Your experience, by the way, tracks pretty close to that of many. Too many times, our theology is expressed in slogans and reflects poorly thought out Bible study. I once heard a leader in an NTM Boot Camp, after he had picked up a stack of literature, say, "Well, I wanted 50 and I picked up 49! I must be walking in the light!"

He was joking of course, as was the student who retorted, "Minus one!" But, it was a joke based on an honest perception - or misconception of what scriptures teach. And, that's no joke.